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Both new iPhones offer 8MP cameras — is Apple still innovative enough to entice photographers?

519
The new iPhone 5S from Apple has an 8-megapixel camera with a slightly larger sensor.

Apple revealed not one, but two iPhones today at its media event in Cupertino, California. The latest devices are aimed at two very different markets. The colorful iPhone 5C is poised to compete against cheaper smartphones while the iPhone 5S debuts Apple’s newest innovations in mobile technology, including a revamped iSight camera. However, both models are touting a fairly underwhelming spec of 8 megapixels of imaging power  — will it be enough to lure in mobile shutterbugs who may be tempted by the massively megapixel-powered 41MP Nokia Lumia 1020 or 20.7MP Sony Xperia Z1

Software features first: iOS 7

After a brief introduction by Apple CEO Tim Cook, the event started with Craig Federighi, Apple's senior vice president of software engineering, giving quick review of iOS 7's many new features. Among them are live filters and square format capture. iOS 7 is also bringing a brand new take on iOS's photo management, Camera Roll. Instead of simply organizing photos by time captured, the new Camera Roll will automatically group photos based on the time and location they were taken. 

iOS 7 will be available for free on September 18th for iPhone 4 and later, iPad 2 and later, and the fifth generation iPod Touch.

In more software news, iPhoto and iMovie for iOS are soon going to be available for free. The apps previously cost $4.99 each, but will now be included with the purchase of every new iOS device. 

The iPhone 5C

The iPhone 5C is more colorful and less expensive.

The iPhone 5C is, as Apple's Senior Vice President of Design Jony Ive described, "beautifully, unapologetically plastic," and comes in green, white, blue, red and yellow hard-coated polycarbonate with a 4-inch Retina display.

In terms of imaging, the camera on the iPhone 5C looks very similar to that on the iPhone 5. It has an 8MP sensor and f/2.4 aperture lens – just like the iPhone 5 and iPhone 4S.

The iPhone 5C has a larger battery than the iPhone 5 and is powered by an A6 chip for what Apple is calling "blazing-fast" performance. A 16GB iPhone 5C will run you $99 with a two-year contract while a 32GB version cost $199.

iPhone 5S

The iPhone 5S comes in a decadent gold color.

Aside from coming in silver, gold and "space grey," the iPhone 5S doesn’t look all that different from its iPhone 5 predecessor, but inside, this device is an entirely different machine. According to Apple, the new A7 processor in the iPhone 5S is two times as fast as its predecessor with CPU and graphics tasks, making the newest iPhone's CPU performance 40x faster than the first iPhone and 56x faster on graphics.

In addition to the A7 processor, Apple has introduced an entirely new part, the M7 "coprocessor," to take advantage of all of the sensors continuously measuring data from the accelerometer, gyroscope and compass. 

Despite the newer, faster hardware, Apple claims iPhone 5S's battery is "the same or better" than the iPhone 5 with 10 hours of 3G talk time, and 250 hours at standby. 

According to Apple, a new, faster processor, means better photos. In iOS 7, the iPhone 5S camera will perform automatic white balance and exposure to create a dynamic local tone map around the image for better highlights and shadows, using an autofocus metering matrix for sharper photos. After taking a series of photos and analyzing them in real time, it will show you the sharpest image.

The new processor also allowed Apple to introduce auto (but still digital, not optical) image stabilization. The new feature can take long exposures by combining multiple images (something that exposure control app makers have been doing for quite some time.) The iPhone 5S also has a burst mode that will take up to 10 photos a second as long as you are holding down the shutter button.

Although still coming in at 8 megapixels, Apple says the iPhone 5S offers a revamped iSight camera that will deliver a total of 33 percent better light sensitivity thanks to a larger sensor size, bigger pixels and wider five element ƒ/2.2 lens. Apple reports the new sensor has a 15 percent larger active area with pixels now measuring 1.5 microns in size. Larger pixels mean each individual pixel collects more light, so the pixel-level image quality should also be improved. This, combined with the 1/3EV brighter lens, should make for better low light photos.

The iPhone 5S features one white and one amber LED light for more true-to-life colors when using flash.

If the new sensor and lens still can't capture your dark scene, the new camera comes coupled with an extra, warmer LED flash which Apple is calling "True Tone Flash." The new flash has over 1,000 unique variations that will automatically change based on your lighting situation.

Interestingly enough, Apple made no mention of megapixels when describing the iPhone 5S camera during the event. Our best guess is that since the iPhone 5S does not have sensor-shocking specs like the Lumia 1020 or Xperia Z1, Apple wants to keep people focused on its other hardware advancements. 

See Apple's first image samples from the phone here.

Spec comparison

iPhone 5C iPhone 5S  iPhone 5
Sensor   8MP CMOS  8MP CMOS (with 1.5µ pixels)  8MP CMOS
Lens length (equivalent)   unknown  unknown  33mm
Aperture   f/2.4  f/2.2  f/2.4
 ISO  unknown unknown   50-1000 (up to 3200 by pixel-binning)
Display   4-inch, 326ppi LCD   4-inch, 326ppi LCD  4-inch, 326ppi LCD
Video   1080p  1080p  1080p
 Flash  Single LED  Dual LED "True tone flash"  Single LED
 Face Detection?  Yes  Yes  Yes
 Stills during video?  Yes  Yes  Yes
 Sapphire lens cover?  Yes  Yes   Yes 
 Burst Mode?  No   Yes  No

Availability

Apple is staggering the release of its new phones. The iPhone 5C will be available for pre-order online starting this Friday, September 13th, while the iPhone 5S will be released the following week on the 20th, but only in retail stores at this point. Contract-free, the iPhone 5S will cost $649 for 16GB, $749 for 32GB or $849 for 64GB (with contract: 16GB for $199, 32GB for $299 or 64GB for $399). The iPhone 5C is slightly more affordable at $549 out-of-contract for the 16GB version or $649 for 32GB.

When the iPhone 5 was released last year, Apple was the leader in smartphone photography, but with all of the technological advancements in mobile digital imaging this year, the field has changed dramatically. We look forward to getting the newest flagship device from Apple into our studio to see how it stacks up to today's serious smartphone competition.

Comments

Total comments: 519
123
marike6

8 mp camera, Retina display, more photo apps than any other platform - for $99. What's not to like?

1 upvote
Petrogel

The two year contract that will totally cost you more than $700 plus phone calls !!!
Notice that you are buying an old devise the only part is new is the colored plastics.
Too much money for colored plastics

Comment edited 9 minutes after posting
6 upvotes
TrojMacReady

The lack of image stabilization, any type of manual control outside auto modes. And the real price of the package, bumping up your contract to amounts comparable to high end phones from other companies.

4 upvotes
marike6

> The two year contract that will totally cost you more than $700 plus phone calls !!!

And the Lumia 1020 or Samsung S3 won't cost this much? Of course they will.

From a photographer's perspective I suppose the iPhone 5C, other than the Retina display is underwhelming, but as a smartphone - mp3 player, apps, camera, face time, display - it's actually quite competitive.

Re: plastics, almost everyone uses some kind of cover for their smartphone. What on earth does it matter if the unit you are covering up is metal or plastic?

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 14 seconds after posting
1 upvote
shigzeo ?

@TrojMacReady

The beauty of the smartphone is that you can buy apps to cover things like manual control, ISO, etc. But let's be honest, a smartphone with any calibre of camera/sensor/manual controls won't replace a fast lens on a large sensor and a proper camera.

As smartphones get better and better they allow you take less equipment to things like parties where a real camera just gets in the way. That is, unless you are the photographer there for the express purpose of photographing the event.

I'm excited though because my contract still has a year left on it, won't be getting one.

0 upvotes
TrojMacReady

I don't see the display to be that competitive (competing screens are up to 48% larger and have almost 3 times as many pixels). The Apple display has good color accuracy and good maximum brightness, average contrast, quite average blacklevels, quite severe contrast and color shifts under angle compared to some competing screens and a too blue whitebalance.

Some phones costing half as much have 720P screens competitive to this.

And as for buying apps, the beauty is that I don't want to be forced to buy apps to gain control over the most basic parameters. There is no excuse to not give that control, even if hidden for novices in a menu.

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
3 upvotes
Menneisyys

"The beauty of the smartphone is that you can buy apps to cover things like manual control, ISO, etc"

Wrong. As I've explained numerous times here in the DPReviews forums, on the iPhone, you simply cannot do almost anything manually, not even with third-party apps. All you can do is:

- using separate focus and exposure POI's (but they'll still be automatic - no manual focus / exposure is possible)
- allow for auto-extending the ISO over 1000 on iPhone 5's
- allow for auto-extending the shutter speed up to 1s

But you in no way can directly dial in / set anything. Not even exposure compensation. Unlike on competing platforms, where exposure compensation, WB and ISO has been manually settable since their very first versions. And, with WP and Nokia's more expensive phones, with Pro Camera, you can manually set anything, even focus.

1 upvote
Menneisyys

"And as for buying apps, the beauty is that I don't want to be forced to buy apps to gain control over the most basic parameters. There is no excuse to not give that control, even if hidden for novices in a menu."

The problem with iOS is that you can't gain control to those parameters via third-party apps either.

Some apps like KitCam even trick users thinking they're applying proper exposure compensation while they're just applying it post-shooting. (See the last section of http://www.iphonelife.com/blog/87/exposure-compensation-and-bracketing-bible on this if interested.) Unfortunately, a lot of iOS apps cheat like this.

0 upvotes
bigley Ling

@Menneisyys I think the iPhone camera was meant to be easy to use. Although there is limited to no manual control over anything in the default camera app, it does allow for literally anybody to be able use it. I think the improved camera over the 5 is a bonus, which will allow for even better images to be casually captured.

For users with a photographic background, the simple iPhone camera can be used as it, and for some it can be quite relaxing not having to concentrate on controlling, shutter speeds, exposure, image quality, image resolution etc.

For those wanting relaly enjoy full manual control like you and I, we can rest assured that the 808 and the 1020 will for-fill our needs.

0 upvotes
shigzeo ?

@TrojMacReady

I think it is obvious that the iPhone isn't for you. I've noted elsewhere that Apple don't compete on a price/feature level. If they used the same OS as everyone else did, they would have to. But since they brand their experience they are not caught by having to make larger or faster or cheaper just to sell.

0 upvotes
Robert La Palme

For some time on this site, they put too much effort to cover "any gadget" that is able to take pictures as phones or tablets.

It will be what next? Fisher-Price cameras? Rear-view cameras for car?

I thought this site was talking about thing made primary for photography.

Comment edited 27 seconds after posting
2 upvotes
alistairhenning

As I understand it this part of DP Review is specifically to talk about mobile devices and such. Given that brief, certainly the new iPhones (however unexciting) are fair game.

2 upvotes
Menneisyys

"It will be what next? Fisher-Price cameras? Rear-view cameras for car?"

The iPhone is a popular flagship device with a comparatively good camera. No wonder it's reported on here.

4 upvotes
graybalanced

Flickr is a photography site, and the number one camera on Flickr, for years, has been the iPhone.

If you want to arbitrarily block one of the most popular cameras ever made just because it makes phone calls on the side, well, that's your own decision, but pretty exclusive of a large body of photographic works.

1 upvote
sublogic

Nobody cares that you paid $3000 for your DSLR.. or you spend hours on end in Photoshop when SnapSeed can do the same effect with the flick of a finger these days. Beauty is still in the eye of the beholder, regardless of how it was made or captured.

0 upvotes
D1N0

Now your camera first needs to read your fingerprint before you can take a pic. Bye bye opportunity. The camera of the future is called ...... Glass

0 upvotes
Menneisyys

"Now your camera first needs to read your fingerprint before you can take a pic. Bye bye opportunity."

It's not mandatory. It's just a feature you may opt for, should you WANT to use it.

3 upvotes
Peiasdf

Do you need to input password with current iPhone to take photo? As I recall, password unlock is bypassed if you just want to take photo and not access the phone.

3 upvotes
Mariner4

Glass! hahaha! I can't wait to see someone in the real world wearing those glasses! hahaha!

0 upvotes
graybalanced

Are you sure about that? Because it would contradict the way the iPhone camera currently works when locked.

With a locked iPhone today, you simply slide up the camera icon and you can take a picture immediately, without having to unlock it. To maintain security, the iPhone does not let you view anything on the phone other than the photos taken during that session.

If you have knowledge that the camera is being implemented differently in the new version, then OK. But if it works consistently with the way it works now, your post is uninformative.

Comment edited 43 seconds after posting
1 upvote
D1N0

so sue me

1 upvote
sublogic

The new M7 Motion sensing capability can potentially allow for the same motion capabilities found on the Moto X. I'm assuming with the flick of a wrist, this can be programmed to operate the camera, allowing for quick captures. Couple that with the 10 frames per second and fast processor, you won't miss a beat.

0 upvotes
alistairhenning

I've had photos taken with my iPhone 4S shown in galleries and printed up to 20"x20".

It used to be that Apple was the leader when it came to both phone camera hardware and software technology. Clearly this is no longer the case.

Like many users, I'm considering trying something different. The Nokia 1020 looks good enough for Hipstamatic among others, but I wonder if ultimately people like me who are looking for the highest possible image quality with smartphone interface and sharing might be better with something like the Sony QX100 and forgetting the arms race between cell phone manufacturers.

Ultimately it'll be a long time before any cell phone camera is going to match a dedicated high-end P/S or DSLR for image quality.

<www.AlistairHenning.com>

Comment edited 60 seconds after posting
1 upvote
VisualFX

I'm sorry for the galleries that accepted your iphone photos. They can jam as many pixels they want in a pin-hole camera, but there is no comparison in detail to larger sensors.

1 upvote
graybalanced

All you've said, VisualFX, is that pixel-peeping is more important that content.

Comment edited 43 seconds after posting
1 upvote
sublogic

Really? People still think that more megapixels = better camera / photo quality? They don't understand that more megapixels in the same tiny sensor = more noise. They also don't realize that the smaller your aperture = the better the light and the better the Depth of Field which creates awesome bokeh in pictures. The bigger sensor will reduce noise in low light and the f/2.2 will not only reduce this noise as well, but allow for some creativity without the need for filters. The retina display already has great clarity which is what we're used to seeing in Macs. This is why Apple owns this industry, because they know how we think in terms of photography/graphic design. Android is so fragmented which is why you never see cool attachments / accessories that take advantage of what the phone has to offer.

0 upvotes
DotCom Editor

Doesn't have a 128GB version. Very disappointing.

3 upvotes
Henrikw

I'm quite pleased with these upgrades. My iphone is used for casual photography when I can't be bothered to carry my dslr.
Studying the picture quality on any phone (including the Lumia 1020) will be a disappointment for photographers like us - but it is fine for what it is.
Kudos to Apple for not getting caught up in the senseless megapixel race on tiny sensors - they did the right thing by increasing sensor size and lens aperture, and reworking the processing to optimize light sensitivity.
Regarding OIS - I use digital IS on apps like Kitcam and it works ok. It's a bit laggy, but I'm confident an apple produced camera app on a phone with twice the grunt will sort that out.

Appreciate the iphone camera for what it is - I'm sure it will do a tremendous job

7 upvotes
imsabbel

1.5um pixels are still tiny, so no need for apple to feel smug about their "large pixel", low res camera.

0 upvotes
HowaboutRAW

What do you expect the pixel size of the Nikon D4?

May not be big, I really don't pay attention jpeg only cameras, but at least it's a start in the right direction. Took Canon long enough to realize it with the G series.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
6 upvotes
Petrogel
2 upvotes
DotCom Editor

It's pure PR spin. Apple didn't do a substantial upgrade, so it has to make it sound as though one wasn't necessary. Trust me, when Apple finally DOES come out with a high pixel-count camera, the company will have no trouble repudiating everything that came before it.

6 upvotes
Petrogel

@Dot
Sorry to hear it from me but Steve Jobs is dead and he was the only one who could.
The company is sliding and iP5c is the proof .

2 upvotes
HowaboutRAW

DotCom:

Don’t know whether your being factitious or not.

Just to be clear: More pixels on a sensor does not automatically make for better image quality.

And right, Apple could very well just claim that image quality is better because of more pixels on some future iPhone cameras–sort of like the Retina display claims. (My HP laptop’s display has much better colour, but less resolution than the MacBook retinas.”

0 upvotes
HowaboutRAW

Petro–

Jobs had a great touch, sure, but he pushed some dumb ideas and dumb products.

That god awful Mighty Mouse was one of the worst pieces of garbage.

Built-in batteries, particularly in phones, need to go.

Until iTunes version 11, sound playback on iTunes sounded horrid. (And 11 only released after his death.)

There was the Final Cut X and old projects fiasco.

Pentalobe.

Easy AVCHD support on a Mac–not limited to the Final Cut limitation.

1 USB port on the first MacBook Air.

iPhone 4 and its antenna.

The poor hardware sound quality of every iPod, except the Touch.

Also Jobs didn’t release the giant gift that keeps giving to Apple, even today 6 years later: Windows Vista. Just imagine if Microsoft had released an OS as stable as XP in 2007 and followed up with a stable Windows phone OS the same year.

0 upvotes
Petrogel

@how
Only few phones (units) last more than their batteries.

Until iTunes 11, there were 10 more with better sound output compared to competition, Windows media player

Final Cut Pro together with EDIUS Pro 7 are the two top video editing programs for argent users ease to use .

Why use USB when you can use Thunderbolt, one port is enough, though my mac has two.

Windows xp was the last stable O.S made by microsoft, but unfortunately could not take advantage of more than one cores.

And finally window phones as i hear they have compatibility problems with Google owned sites like, let's say, Youtube.com

Comment edited 58 seconds after posting
1 upvote
HowaboutRAW

PetroGel:

You have no idea of what you write.

There was no ThunderBolt when the first MacBook Air shipped.

The sound quality of Windows Media Player remains better than iTunes. And Real is better than both.

You have not addressed the huge failure of Final Cut X to open projects started with older versions of Final Cut. (This did get fixed.)

Thank you, not, for deciding how long a smartphone will last, also of course batteries simply die after say a day’s steady use and need to be swapped. (Though yes, if you want you can get an external battery pack or case with a built-in battery.) Say Panasonic or Sony would be laughed out of the video camera business if they released cameras with built-in batteries–same goes for Milwaukee+Makita etc in the cordless tool business.

I was not asking why Windows XP was stable? Just saying Microsoft released Vista (and the not real stable 7) thereby driving away customers.

Not at all sure you’re write about XP and multicore CPUs either.

0 upvotes
Petrogel

HowaboutRAW
YOU have no idea what you write

The sound coming out of a microsoft compatible laptop is depended only from the laptop itself (there are both 32 and 64bit on the market) on an Apple the O.S IS 64bit on mac books.
I had a sony vaio when i bought my first mac -(i was using iTunes a long time before i buy a mac, and the difference on audio output compared to window media player more than obvious, not to talk about .wma files, not even microsoft supported it )- and there was nothing to compare with.

How can a program can be a failure when it is installed and used in 7 from 10 mac computers (not only mac books ), -( notice that this program does not have an edition compatible with window)- ??????

I know NOONE having a problem with his Smartphone batteries, NO MATTER THE BRAND (Nokia or Apple or Whatever) , i believe you are left on 80's technology.
But just in case let me inform you that there are some shops were people are able to change your battery

0 upvotes
Petrogel

Part 2
Your Milwaukee+Makita example is really funny, we are talking about phones,

I'm afraid you are a little bit mixed up, Windows 7 was more stable compared to Vista (actually 7 was Vistas upgrade cause vista just couldn't).

Vista was microsoft's failed attempt to take advantage of multicore CPU's

There was no Thunderbolt port on the first Airmac, there is now in all of the lap-toped, desk-toped or Pro's.

You seem not to have an idea of what you're commenting !!!!!!!

Comment edited 47 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
Petrogel

Mate your Milwaukee+Makita example is really funny, IRRELEVANT FUNNY !!! LOL

0 upvotes
Petrogel

Milwaukee+Makita hahahahaha !!!!!!!

0 upvotes
Petrogel

Really !! what Panasonic cell phone you had in mind ? LOL !!!!!

Comment edited 20 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
HowaboutRAW

Petrogel:

Panasonic, Milwaukee and Makita all make cordless power tools, since you clearly don't know what the word "cordless" means here: It means battery powered. And with those tools, unlike the iPhone, it is easy to swap batteries in the field. So like the video camera example those names are completely relevant.

You seemed to have missed the "first" part of the MacBook Air, and releasing it with one USB port was a stupid move by Jobs.

Windows 7 is not particularly stable compared to Mac, or Windows XP.

There is no prohibition to running multicore processors, at least with Windows XP Pro 64. Though one can only have 2 processors total.

I've had strangers in a cafe ask me if I had an iPhone charger--that's a problem with builtin batteries.

The fact remains that iTunes through v10 sounded awful. I don't listen to MP3s or WMA files. While Real always sounds better. I can't speak to WinMediaPlayer on XP, but it's better than iTunes on Win7.

So every example you cite is wrong.

0 upvotes
Petrogel

Well what "howaboutRAW" taught us today is that : "the word "cordless" means here: It means battery powered"
But what he said was : "Say Panasonic or Sony would be laughed out of the video camera business if they released cameras with built-in batteries"

We agree on the part that OSX is more stable compared to vista, 7

I don't know about Windows pro 64, but Windows home 32 could not take advantage of core duo.

If that strangers had a phone with removable batteries they would curry a second battery?
How many do you know that they curry one?

When you say real you mean that you call -Dire Straits for example- to play at you place? cause if it's so i'm in.
Sorry iTunes is abetter software!!!!

My example is not wrong, your answer to my example is wrong.

0 upvotes
HowaboutRAW

PetroGel:

Your first paragraph’s logic is confused, clearly “cordless” referred to Makita, Milwaukee, etc. And yes Panasonic makes cordless powertools.

Why bring up the band Dire Straits?

Clearly “Real”, note the capital, refers to RealPlayer. Which still has better sound quality than iTunes, including the vastly improved iTunes V11. There’s no particular problem with Real’s library system either, unlike Windows Media Player’s. GOM,--Windows only-- also sounds better than iTunes.

I never limited my claims to Windows XP 32 bit., so you could be right about the 32bit XP.

The original point you still seem to miss: Steve Jobs released a lot of dumb things in his second tenure as boss of Apple. Though no, none as dumb as Microsoft’s Vista, 7, and 8.

The results of a simple Amazon search for the terms: “iPhone battery pack” suggest how many people seek out external batteries for smartphones with built-in batteries.

0 upvotes
Petrogel

HowaboutRAW.
Read your first paragraph on the comment before that, to see what is confusing.

Dire Straits stick to the : While Real always sounds better.

Real refers to real player only to you. Speaking and comparing iTunes with one another software brought to my mind windows media player as is the only that comes with windows xp, as i know RealPlayer can be installed on a mac, (tho i prefer iTunes far better sound output).

Windows xp can identify processors but not cores (a dual core processor can be identified as one processor), both 32 and 64 version.

Maybe Steve Jobs released a lot of dumb things , but he is well known for his innovating ideas and connected his name with a lot of products that monopolizing the market.

The result of amazon's search reveals the number of idiotic crowd of iPhone owners,

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Stollen1234

iphone 5C one year old technology for almost 600 Euro

good job Apple for this new AFFORDABLE old phone

4 upvotes
Petrogel

When Apple uses the term Affordable it uses it only for Apple, Affordable because they found a new way to re-sell leftovers (older electronic parts) from iPhone 4s and 5 on a (Nokia-like) happily colored carcass .
That is Affordable .

6 upvotes
Menneisyys

Affordable? Sure it is, at least compared to the 5S - it's 100 euros cheaper than the 5S.

Of course, it's not worth at all. Of the two, the 5S has definitely better price/value ratio.

3 upvotes
Petrogel

Is this a historic moment where we agree on something ?

4 upvotes
marike6

The iPhone 5C is $99 in the US. Not expensive at all considering the display and functionality.

0 upvotes
Petrogel

The two year contract that will totally cost you more than $700 plus phone calls !!!

2 upvotes
sublogic

So you're saying I can make free phone calls with AT&T if I get a Samsung with or without a contract? SWEET! Goodbye Apple, Hello Samsung!

1 upvote
Petrogel

No, i said : "The two year contract that will totally cost you more than $700 plus phone calls" .
But surely you can get your self a $ 200 Samsung (with bluetooth working between different devises, for exchanging Files i.e ) out of contract so you can spend $500 on phone calls.

2 upvotes
pcimaging

Okay so I am a photographer. I primarily shoot wildlife so you can well imagine I would pretty much find the iPhone to be useless. No, not exactly, I use the iPhone quite often, in fact much more than I use my DSLR . That however is because I use the iPhone for a variety of different shots. I snap many pictures of friends and family, incidents around town or where ever I happen to be so I can quickly post them to Facebook or elsewhere online. I take quick shots of products and grocery items, my dogs playing and so much more. The camera is a convenience and its always within reach at the right moment. Now seriously, do I use it for professional purposes ? NOT really.If I was to have it handy at the moment of a news worthy story Id take a shot to upload to the news station. So the 8 MP is actually a better size for me that the 41 MP of the Nokia. My guess is that the new iPhone sensor may actually produce better picture quality than the others.

3 upvotes
bigley Ling

You do not have to use the whole 41MP sensor. That is why Nokia implemented Pureview modes. This allows one to achieve a cleaner more detailed wide angle shot, plus in good light you get free digital lossless zoom, which was the primary reason for having 41MP.

Sometimes when shooting wildlife, the animals may not want a phone poked right in front of their face, and it is then a little zoom can of benefit.

I have to say though, I am quite impressed at the samples that have been posted here. It seems to produce alot cleaner image than my iPhone 5.

1 upvote
Woodlink

I'd like to see a comparison of low light images from the iPhone 5s and that Nokia 41 megapixel beast

0 upvotes
Menneisyys

As the 5S, pitifully, doesn't have OIS while the 1020 does, you already know the results (assuming handheld shooting - as is the case in 99,99% of times).

1 upvote
sublogic

Really? I remember when DSLR's didn't even have OIS, photographers mostly relied on their expensive lenses with wide open apertures (f/2) to capture sharp photos based on the light sensitivity these lenses produces. Shows how much you amateurs know these days.

0 upvotes
wansai

@sublogic

0 upvotes
Menneisyys

"Really? I remember when DSLR's didn't even have OIS, photographers mostly relied on their expensive lenses with wide open apertures (f/2) to capture sharp photos based on the light sensitivity these lenses produces. Shows how much you amateurs know these days."

1. I think you should get off the high horses - I may be knowing more of photography and shooting than you.

2. now that OIS is starting to be common with other flagships (LG G2, HTC One, 92x, 1020), it's perfectly understandable photo enthusiast do want it to be implemented in Apple's flagship too.

0 upvotes
bigley Ling

sublogic, if you want to go back in time when there was no OIS, how about going back in time to when there was no DSLR. SLR's had limitations in film speed. I believe expensive lens with fast apertures were also required to capture sharp images. Also using a tripod would also help reduce shake....

0 upvotes
joe6pack

I don't understand why the press call iPhone5C the affordable iPhone. How is $549 "affordable"? It is more expensive than HTC One and Galaxy S4 (street price).

5 upvotes
Petrogel

Mate that was my query too ?
Apple has a weird perspective of what is cheap and what is not

1 upvote
klopus

Guys c'mon! How can iP5C have a street price if it wasn't even released yet while both S4 and HTC One are almost half a year on a market.

2 upvotes
Stollen1234

apple is helping mobile provider to sell more 2 years contract instead of just buying phones

0 upvotes
Petrogel

Oh i got it , When they said cheaper they meant cheaper to them !! Not to you !!!! using leftovers from 4s and iPhone 5

Comment edited 8 minutes after posting
1 upvote
shigzeo ?

Note that you said 'affordable iPhone', not 'affordable phone'. Apple are not competing on the same plane. They don't make downward-leaning products. They compete on terms they consider, not on terms the market considers.

Today's market was started in the 1980's where plastic, cheap, and 'good enough' became good enough. Apple do things differently. They do things very much like a company that cares about how it comes across as a company, and as a brand, not merely a market presence. You can like their schtick or hate it, but they do it very well. I'm glad they are around to do it because every other vendor cater to the market or to features.

I think the biggest feature is iOS. Android is awesome by now, but it is shared by 95% of the phones (models not market share) out there. If you buy Android, you buy spec/spec/$$$. If you buy Apple, you don't buy on the same terms. That's what it is.

1 upvote
AbrasiveReducer

I'm not buying any of these phones until the camera has at least 250 megapixels.

4 upvotes
DotCom Editor

And I'm not buying another Canon or Nikon until they can make phone calls...

4 upvotes
micksh6

Nikon Coolpix S800c can make phone calls (via Skype or Google voice and Wi-Fi). Now you owe Nikon $200 for this camera.

1 upvote
dale thorn

Is the biometric mandatory? I'd like to know how I can avoid being fisted by Apple, although it's certainly inevitable in the coming apocalypse.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys

I don't think so... nevertheless, you can always get an Otterbox case, which has a thick layer on top of the sensor too, making it impossible for the phone to capture your fingerprint. (I have the Otterbox Protector for my iPhone 5. It should work just fine with the 5s too.)

Comment edited 24 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
dale thorn

The reason I asked is because in the 100 articles I read, plus Apple's speil, not a mention - not one,

0 upvotes
Menneisyys

Surely not mandatory. If I ever get an 5S (because, say, my employer buys one for me - I definitely won't want to purchase it myself as I'm pretty much fed up with the total lack of innovation of Apple and will go the LG G2 instead), I'll use it with my current Otterbox case. No fingerprints from me for NSA :)

1 upvote
EvokeEmotion

"No fingerprints from me for NSA :)"

They don't need it. They can crack any kind of encryption out there so they'll get to your info anytime they want.

0 upvotes
Dccps

Naysayers all... You deserve what you get - lots of microscopic pixels with no real photographic quality. (Or for that matter, little quality as a phone either). Stay with your cheep crap. Like I said before, you deserve it. Those who know choose Apple. The high quality alternative.

4 upvotes
Menneisyys

" Those who know choose Apple. The high quality alternative."

Lolz... you're a fanboy, aren't you?

Those "cheep [sic!] crap" cameras like the Nokia 1020 or the LG G2 have even OIS and have stereo recording, much wider lens etc. Does the iPhone 5S have any of these - most importantly, OIS? Nope. So much for the alleged "high quality"...

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
6 upvotes
Petrogel

Skip that lens part it's a joke !!

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
0 upvotes
Menneisyys

"Skip that lens part it's a joke !!"

What's a joke? A smartphone (the iPhone 5 and, I'm afraid, the 5S too) that shoots 1080p video at 40 mm equiv, while all the rest use 28mm or, the better ones like the 808 and the 1020, even 25-26mm? That's indeed a joke...

0 upvotes
Petrogel

Maybe they'll bring better image quality that the one from the 28mm of the 1020 (which by the way is not for that sensor's size )

Comment edited 27 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
Menneisyys

"Maybe they'll bring better image quality that the one from the 28mm of the 1020 (which by the way is not for that sensor's size )"

As I've pointed out in several of my posts and articles, the 1020's lens is "only" soft in the left/rightmost 2*10% of the frame in 16:9 mode (in 4:3, significantly less).

0 upvotes
KariIceland

Lol you make me laugh. Apple is HIGH Price, not High quality, it is funny to see an Apple fanboy think higher cost = higher quality. That is FALSE & I am an owner of many android AND apple products.

1 upvote
Petrogel

Menneisyys , Wake up mate, you're either a Nokia fanboy or a blind commentator, you can not point out nothing about Nokia or wp8 , and certainly you can not compare products to Nokia, you are not objective

Comment edited 5 minutes after posting
3 upvotes
bigley Ling

@Menneisyys I am also quite annoyed at the corner softness of the 1020. If it were not for that, even with the other 1020's short comings, I would have jumped at the opportunity to own such an amazing piece of technology. And it is not just the corners that are soft.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/q5xx.jpg/

I cropped this from pureviewclub midway down the frame and across about 10% towards the middle. It is only closer to the center of the frame that sharpness is good. This issue is most prevalent when pixel peeping 41mp full resolution images. The 1020 5MP pureview images are not so high resolution so these effects are reduced and only corner softness at extreme corners are visible.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Petrogel

These colored iPhones look like Nokia Lumia aren't they ??

6 upvotes
Petrogel

Apple copied colored Nokia Window Phones ?
It's a shame !!!!!

4 upvotes
KariIceland

Did you expect Apple to do any innovation? They have not innovated for MANY YEARS even before the first ipad which was not an innovation either.

3 upvotes
IcyPepsi

And from pentax ;)

1 upvote
graybalanced

Apple brings out a fingerprint reader and the first 64-bit CPU seen on any smartphone, and people still complain about Apple having "no innovation." What do you propose Apple should have done? Anything obvious?

1 upvote
Menneisyys

"Apple brings out a fingerprint reader and the first 64-bit CPU seen on any smartphone, and people still complain about Apple having "no innovation." What do you propose Apple should have done? Anything obvious?"

This is a PHOTOGRAPHY website. And yes, the 5S camera lacks a lot of essential things other, competing smartphones already have:

- OIS - the most important!
- any type of manual control outside auto modes - also important
- stereo audio recording
- 1080p60
- PiP
- Xenon flash

This is why most of us consider the 5S a pretty weak, non-innovative model, at least shooting-wise.

1 upvote
Petrogel

Mnenneisyys, It is also important for a camera to take sharp photos something that Nokia 1020 doesn't .

0 upvotes
Artistico

Why would you consider 8 megapixels "underwhelming" compared to Nokia's 41 or Sony's 20? After all, we should all know by now that 8 megapixels are much better at these sensor sizes.

3 upvotes
Menneisyys

Yup, indeed not the best way to put it... after all, 8 Mpixels can be even better than 13 or 20.

Too bad it's not the 8 Mpixel sensor that the 5S is, for me, a disappointment but the stuff I've listed below:

- no OIS
- no stereo audio recording
- no manual modes, not even via API calls
- (presumably) half-res high-speed modes
- (most probably) 33mm lens in still and, for a phone & social videos, a VERY narrow ~40mm in 1080p video shooting mode (other cameras are 26...28mm)

etc.

1 upvote
TrojMacReady

"We" know it's not. For example, I'd take the Sony 13 MP sensor over the Sony 8 MP sensor of this size any day of the week.

Let's see what the new sensor brings to the table.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
1 upvote
Lan

@ Artistico: If the sensors were the same size, that would be true.

The thing is, the sensor in the Nokia 808 is *significantly* larger than any of the iPhone sensors, even that of the new flagship iPhone 5S.

The sensor is so much larger in the 808 that the pixels are actually roughly the same size in both devices (I believe 1.4um in the 808, 1.5um in the 5S) - but due to the size difference between the sensors the Nokia has an extra 30 *million* more pixels of the same size!

Assuming the lenses are of comparable quality (and I wouldn't bet on the unbranded iPhone lens being better than the Carl Zeiss branded lens on the Nokia 808), you should be able to get way more usable detail out of the Nokia.

Comment edited 26 seconds after posting
1 upvote
Jim Radcliffe

Hold on.... I gotta take a call on my camera!

Seriously, I use my phone as a phone (I have the 4S) and only use the camera on very rare occasions. I've seen good photos from the iPhone but the camera is not the reason I use an iPhone... or would consider a phone with larger sensor.

1 upvote
Tonkotsu Ramen

Do you also still walk with your knuckles dragging on the floor?

Wake up! it's 2013! Mobile photography is "in" now.

1 upvote
Jim Radcliffe

The last time I checked every camera I own is mobile. I carry one with me all the time because I don't do selfies and snapshots... oh, you meant you can point it at a scene and then post it on some social media site.. THAT kind of mobile.. then the iPhone will be perfect for you. Whatever floats your boat!

0 upvotes
Petrogel

No !! photographers couldn't care less about iPhones camera, ok they cared less for Nokia's camera.

3 upvotes
SWSF14

With the way iphones sell like crazy, all they had to do was play it safe and introduce minimal improvements. The rest is marketing.

1 upvote
Menneisyys

... and, at the end, only the brainwashed / technofobes stay with them. Both Android and Windows Phone have, shooting-wise, MUCH-MUCH better models (1020 / LG G2).

Heck, the 5S doesn't even have OIS, which is essential...

7 upvotes
klopus

It's hard to consider "minimal" almost total revamp of the innards with twice as fast processor, movement co-processor, fingerprint scanner (first on smartphone) and improved in all respects except fro pixel count camera and sensor. What would've satisfied you, triangle shape with 6.5" screen?

2 upvotes
Menneisyys

"fingerprint scanner (first on smartphone)"

Ever seen the HP iPaq 5450 / 5550? Those are 2003/2004 models... sure, not smartPHONES, "only" PDA's; nevertheless, they had an already-excellent scanner. 10 years before Apple...

"improved in all respects except fro pixel count camera and sensor. What would've satisfied you, triangle shape with 6.5" screen?"

Yes, improved - but by not much. Compared to the competition, it's just not sufficient. The best of the competition already has OIS, all had some manual modes and several (the 92x / 1020) FULL manual control, stereo audio recording, (particularly when shooting hi-res video) much wider lens etc.

I used to be an Apple fan - this is why I've purchased the iPhone 5 too (and all iPhones and iPads before that). Also typing this on my 17" MBP. However, the recent lack of innovation and updates and the, camera-wise, HUGE gap between the iPhone and the rest started to really disappoint me.

0 upvotes
photogeek

It's not the first on a smartphone, klopus. There was a phone with a fingerprint scanner already: Motorola Atrix.

It's the first one that works, in a phone that doesn't suck, though. That I'd agree with.

3 upvotes
bluevaping

Let see the images and a proper review. I think the advanced multiple exposures per shot and picking the best focus and balance will help to eliminate camera shake that OIS provides. There is some type image stabilization because video section says its improved. I be back in a few weeks.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys

" There is some type image stabilization because video section says its improved. I be back in a few weeks."

iPhones have always had video stabilization. This was one of the reason for their FoV, while shooting videos, being so narrow (43mm for the 4S and 40mm for the 5; more info on this at http://www.iphonelife.com/blog/87/why-you-may-want-disable-image-stabilization-during-video-recording ).

However, it has nothing to do with still stabilization as it used the standard electronic IS being in use for 15+ years by consumer camcorders.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys

"the advanced multiple exposures per shot and picking the best focus and balance will help to eliminate camera shake that OIS provides."

Still, there will be VERY few, if at all, keepers at shutter speeds lower than 1/15s (if you enable extending the shutter speed to 1s). Even if you shoot, say, 10 images at 1/2s handheld, I don't think there will be many usable of them.

Compare this to the keeper rate of the OIS-enabled 92x / 1020...

0 upvotes
bigley Ling

Lets hope DPreview or some site does good comparisons between the 1020 and iPhone 5s. This should settle whether this new advanced software stabilization can match the proven hardware optical stabilization.

0 upvotes
BlueBomberTurbo

Considering Apple's quote during the speech:

"It used to be that to take better pics, you just learned to become a better photographer."

Apparently Apple doesn't think much about professional photographers. At all. They're certainly not getting my money.

11 upvotes
pavi1

Why would a professional photographer care what kind of camera a cell phone has. The best are barely good enough to take a picture of a grocery list.

3 upvotes
BlueBomberTurbo

Apparently the Chicago Sun-Times didn't think that was an issue. ;)

6 upvotes
Petrogel

@pavi1
Photographers don't give a ......(whatever) about phone cameras, it's the reviewers of this site that want others to believe that photographers do !!!

2 upvotes
BlueBomberTurbo

Well, it's kinda like Apple saying "Hey, you know that pro you hired, with the expensive professional gear, who spent years refining his technique? Good news! You can fire him! The iPhone 5s is here to take his place!"

More devaluing of photographers' talents. Like there wasn't enough already with people posting snapshots of their lunch, dropping on a generic filter, and having them called masterpieces.

0 upvotes
sublogic

Sounds like you're hating BlueBomber. Did it take you three hours in Photoshop to achieve some HDR effect that I literally re-created in less than a minute in SnapSeed? Did my instagram picture get more likes than something you posted on DeviantArt? I'm sorry my phone takes better pictures than your $3000 setup sometimes.

0 upvotes
BlueBomberTurbo

No, I have a D7100, so I just needed to move the shadows, highlights, and whites sliders in ACR to get an HDR image. Something like this:

http://www.chrisfiorephotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/DSC3122.jpg

So not only do I have true HDR, but an image that can print up to 40" x 60" without looking terrible. :)

Comment edited 31 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
Simelane

You forgot to mention the 120 fps video camera... even my high end DSLR can't do that at 1080p.

I can't wait for the buttery smooth slo-mo's created with the 5S.

2 upvotes
Menneisyys

Don't hold your breath as Apple's high-fps modes (720p60 on the 4S and 5) have traditionally been pixel binned, that is, shot with half the nominal resolution. There is a complete article on this: http://www.iphonelife.com/blog/87/will-ios7-indeed-support-60fps-video-recording-yes-it-will

Dunno if this is also the case with the 5S though. I'd say it's highly probable.

2 upvotes
TrojMacReady

It's at 720p and the Note 3 can do that too and adds 4k at 30 fps.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
jwg63

I'm pretty sure the 5S only does 120fps at 720p. At 1080p it only does 30fps.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys

"I'm pretty sure the 5S only does 120fps at 720p. At 1080p it only does 30fps."

Yup, another disappointment - I hoped for a 60p full HD mode, which is already supported by the LG G2.

Particularly if the 720p120 mode of the 5s, as I've explained above, is pixel binned (capturing only 640*360 effective pixels). I can't say for sure right now.

2 upvotes
tallguy600

Nice! The iPhone 4S flash was horrible, really bad when used in the dark, any improvement is welcome.

0 upvotes
dale thorn

Corporate suicide. What are they doing with that $100 billion in cash?

3 upvotes
rallyfan

They're going to invest it in hiring people with your insights in order to save the company.

9 upvotes
dale thorn

Steve Jobs is dead, much like the zombies who replaced him.

Edit: I was just kidding when I asked about the cash. They'll steal it of course.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
1 upvote
rallyfan

Wait, what?! Steve Jobs died? When?

0 upvotes
mpgxsvcd

These are decent upgrades. However, I still just can't get over how good the Lumia 1020 photos look. I simply don't know how they do it. Too bad they don't use the IOS or Andriod operating system with it.

3 upvotes
Stu 5

But they are not that great. DR is good but the lens is very poor. It is not even good enough for a 8mp phone. Plus the NR is dreadful. Smears far to much detail.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys

"DR is good but the lens is very poor."

... in the left/rightmost 10% of the frame. In the center, it's as good as that of the 808.

0 upvotes
tkbslc

Don't know how they do it? It's a 1/1.5" sensor! That's bigger than cameras like the Panasonic LX7 or Canon G16.

2 upvotes
bigley Ling

The 1020 lens performance best suits 5MP pureview mode as more of the frame will be sharp as Menneisys has stated. When capturing in full resolution, more of the sides are revealed as soft. It just shows that higher MP sensors requires very high quality optics to go with it in order to get optimum results.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
1 upvote
Menneisyys

Also note that the high-speed video modes may be suffering from pixel binning. That is, the 720p120 mode may, in reality, only capture at half the resolution in both directions; that is, 640*360.

At least that's the case with the iPhone 5 running on iOS7 (see http://www.iphonelife.com/blog/87/will-ios7-indeed-support-60fps-video-recording-yes-it-will for some precise resolution measurements.)

All in all, the photo-related improvements are indeed minimal, even if you take the, compared to the iPhone 5, double-Megapixel panorama mode, the somewhat (not much - the difference is WAY smaller than, say, between 1/3" and 1/2.3" or 1/2.3" and 1/1.7") larger sensor and brighter lens into account:

- still no double capturing (which would HIGHLY be useful when you'd like to include the image of the person taking the shot in the final video / pic too)

- still not any kind of manual modes, not even via third-party apps (via API calls)

All in all, I'd say it's not worth upgrading from the 5.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
1 upvote
photogeek

Yeah, larger sensor, better lens and color temperature aware flash (that no one else, including "camera" companies has), are "minimal" updates these days, right.

7 upvotes
Menneisyys

"Yeah, larger sensor, better lens and color temperature aware flash (that no one else, including "camera" companies has), are "minimal" updates these days, right."

1. Where's the OIS? THAT's what I'd call a decent upgrade making even the 5 > 5s upgrade truly useful, unlike these small upgrades.

Heck, the thing doesn't even support stereo audio recording or a 28mm lens, while almost all other flagship smartphones do...

2. Larger sensor? 17% larger. Not much. Much-much less than, say, the 808's using an 1/1.2" sensor and not a 1/3" one. Heck, even the Z1 has a much-much larger sensor than traditional 1/3" smartphones (including the 5 / 5s). And the lens is only just a bit (a tiny fraction of a stop) brighter.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
4 upvotes
bigley Ling

Menneisyys, There is no doubt that OIS is missing from the iPhone. I guess that means the 808 still has not be obsoleted completely for not having OIS :)

Although the Z1 sensor is larger than the iPhone 5s sensor, the 5s does have a larger 1.5 micron pixel, which theoretically equates to better signal to noise than the much smaller 1.1 micron found in the Z1.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys

"Although the Z1 sensor is larger than the iPhone 5s sensor, the 5s does have a larger 1.5 micron pixel, which theoretically equates to better signal to noise than the much smaller 1.1 micron found in the Z1."

And it seems to be the case. The IQ of the 5S seems to be great for a smartphone. The Z1, on the other hand, is a complete disaster and disgrace for Sony.

0 upvotes
arhmatic

Well, it seems to be the most used camera phone on the market, for now... but what comparing 5 with 5s for photography, improvements are minimal.
Yes, I read better flash, burst and 2.2... Using the iphone since 2007, have the 5, but definitely not worth the upgrade this time.

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
1 upvote
photogeek

That's basically the idea. Most people are on contract, so they make it worth your "upgrade" dollars every 2 years, when contract expires. I have a 4s, and for me it definitely is worth the price.

3 upvotes
arhmatic

I paid the full price upfront, just so I am free. It's a personal decision regarding the contract.

What's missing? Manual control of exposure compensation and white balance. Quite a must to me. And then, the screen size...

2 upvotes
Menneisyys

"Manual control of exposure compensation and white balance."

Yup, it's a pity, since stock Android / WinPhone have been having WB, proper exposure compensation and manual ISO setting since their inception, that is, for YEARS - in their stock (!!) camera client too. (And, of course, the now-dead Symbian.)

Comment edited 29 seconds after posting
5 upvotes
photogeek

There are DOZENS of people wanting manual exposure compensation, DOZENS!

3 upvotes
Menneisyys

"There are DOZENS of people wanting manual exposure compensation, DOZENS!"

Well, based on the number and success of the several semi-exposure compensation apps in the AppStore (some of which I've already compared in my Exposure Compensation and Bracketing Bible at http://www.iphonelife.com/blog/87/exposure-compensation-and-bracketing-bible ), there are at least tens of thousands of them. Definitely not only some dozens - if that were true, noone would have bothered writing exp. comp. apps for iOS.

Comment edited 42 seconds after posting
1 upvote
photogeek

Watch the presentation, dude. The camera is pretty badass. It's about 50 minutes in. Bible, schmible. It's not what it's for.

0 upvotes
Mark B.

photogeek, I have a 4s and I see no compelling reason at all to upgrade. What a yawner of an upgrade. Gold color and fingerprint unlocking - really? I'm patiently waiting for my contract to expire so I can take a look at moving to Samsung. Apple needs to break away from that ancient form factor.

0 upvotes
BUG322

The reason all u iphone fans think its better because its an apple. This really shows the brainwashed users of it. Fk Apple on my PC no flight simulator and good hardware works on it . I use Windows 8 maybe it doesnt sound so hip because many still live in 1990 feelings. This is also the case for more MP like in the lumia. I still own a D50 with 2 super lenses. But over time i dont have this thing Always with me the Lumia 1020 is the first smartphone where i get really warm and inspired. And its not about 41 MP but the way it uses it to make a nice 5MP picture. No it will not replace my DSLR especially in the tele stuff. But having Always a Phone with a good camera on it is a no brainer. Apple is smart in brainwashing people and let them buy stuff wich is over rated as well in its price. The so confident and the logo is all their reason they have.. ...the idiots

0 upvotes
BUG322

Why are people so ignorant about WP8 with GDR3 it blows the iphone in screen res or cores.
With the same kernel as my windows 8 all features will be transformed it already has DirectX 11 on board . My Lumia 800 worked flawlessly over 2 years no stuttering no second slower as day one. No malware no virus. The apps are controlled like apple but u have a way more choice in hardware. I love it.

0 upvotes
Total comments: 519
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