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Both new iPhones offer 8MP cameras — is Apple still innovative enough to entice photographers?

518
The new iPhone 5S from Apple has an 8-megapixel camera with a slightly larger sensor.

Apple revealed not one, but two iPhones today at its media event in Cupertino, California. The latest devices are aimed at two very different markets. The colorful iPhone 5C is poised to compete against cheaper smartphones while the iPhone 5S debuts Apple’s newest innovations in mobile technology, including a revamped iSight camera. However, both models are touting a fairly underwhelming spec of 8 megapixels of imaging power  — will it be enough to lure in mobile shutterbugs who may be tempted by the massively megapixel-powered 41MP Nokia Lumia 1020 or 20.7MP Sony Xperia Z1

Software features first: iOS 7

After a brief introduction by Apple CEO Tim Cook, the event started with Craig Federighi, Apple's senior vice president of software engineering, giving quick review of iOS 7's many new features. Among them are live filters and square format capture. iOS 7 is also bringing a brand new take on iOS's photo management, Camera Roll. Instead of simply organizing photos by time captured, the new Camera Roll will automatically group photos based on the time and location they were taken. 

iOS 7 will be available for free on September 18th for iPhone 4 and later, iPad 2 and later, and the fifth generation iPod Touch.

In more software news, iPhoto and iMovie for iOS are soon going to be available for free. The apps previously cost $4.99 each, but will now be included with the purchase of every new iOS device. 

The iPhone 5C

The iPhone 5C is more colorful and less expensive.

The iPhone 5C is, as Apple's Senior Vice President of Design Jony Ive described, "beautifully, unapologetically plastic," and comes in green, white, blue, red and yellow hard-coated polycarbonate with a 4-inch Retina display.

In terms of imaging, the camera on the iPhone 5C looks very similar to that on the iPhone 5. It has an 8MP sensor and f/2.4 aperture lens – just like the iPhone 5 and iPhone 4S.

The iPhone 5C has a larger battery than the iPhone 5 and is powered by an A6 chip for what Apple is calling "blazing-fast" performance. A 16GB iPhone 5C will run you $99 with a two-year contract while a 32GB version cost $199.

iPhone 5S

The iPhone 5S comes in a decadent gold color.

Aside from coming in silver, gold and "space grey," the iPhone 5S doesn’t look all that different from its iPhone 5 predecessor, but inside, this device is an entirely different machine. According to Apple, the new A7 processor in the iPhone 5S is two times as fast as its predecessor with CPU and graphics tasks, making the newest iPhone's CPU performance 40x faster than the first iPhone and 56x faster on graphics.

In addition to the A7 processor, Apple has introduced an entirely new part, the M7 "coprocessor," to take advantage of all of the sensors continuously measuring data from the accelerometer, gyroscope and compass. 

Despite the newer, faster hardware, Apple claims iPhone 5S's battery is "the same or better" than the iPhone 5 with 10 hours of 3G talk time, and 250 hours at standby. 

According to Apple, a new, faster processor, means better photos. In iOS 7, the iPhone 5S camera will perform automatic white balance and exposure to create a dynamic local tone map around the image for better highlights and shadows, using an autofocus metering matrix for sharper photos. After taking a series of photos and analyzing them in real time, it will show you the sharpest image.

The new processor also allowed Apple to introduce auto (but still digital, not optical) image stabilization. The new feature can take long exposures by combining multiple images (something that exposure control app makers have been doing for quite some time.) The iPhone 5S also has a burst mode that will take up to 10 photos a second as long as you are holding down the shutter button.

Although still coming in at 8 megapixels, Apple says the iPhone 5S offers a revamped iSight camera that will deliver a total of 33 percent better light sensitivity thanks to a larger sensor size, bigger pixels and wider five element ƒ/2.2 lens. Apple reports the new sensor has a 15 percent larger active area with pixels now measuring 1.5 microns in size. Larger pixels mean each individual pixel collects more light, so the pixel-level image quality should also be improved. This, combined with the 1/3EV brighter lens, should make for better low light photos.

The iPhone 5S features one white and one amber LED light for more true-to-life colors when using flash.

If the new sensor and lens still can't capture your dark scene, the new camera comes coupled with an extra, warmer LED flash which Apple is calling "True Tone Flash." The new flash has over 1,000 unique variations that will automatically change based on your lighting situation.

Interestingly enough, Apple made no mention of megapixels when describing the iPhone 5S camera during the event. Our best guess is that since the iPhone 5S does not have sensor-shocking specs like the Lumia 1020 or Xperia Z1, Apple wants to keep people focused on its other hardware advancements. 

See Apple's first image samples from the phone here.

Spec comparison

iPhone 5C iPhone 5S  iPhone 5
Sensor   8MP CMOS  8MP CMOS (with 1.5µ pixels)  8MP CMOS
Lens length (equivalent)   unknown  unknown  33mm
Aperture   f/2.4  f/2.2  f/2.4
 ISO  unknown unknown   50-1000 (up to 3200 by pixel-binning)
Display   4-inch, 326ppi LCD   4-inch, 326ppi LCD  4-inch, 326ppi LCD
Video   1080p  1080p  1080p
 Flash  Single LED  Dual LED "True tone flash"  Single LED
 Face Detection?  Yes  Yes  Yes
 Stills during video?  Yes  Yes  Yes
 Sapphire lens cover?  Yes  Yes   Yes 
 Burst Mode?  No   Yes  No

Availability

Apple is staggering the release of its new phones. The iPhone 5C will be available for pre-order online starting this Friday, September 13th, while the iPhone 5S will be released the following week on the 20th, but only in retail stores at this point. Contract-free, the iPhone 5S will cost $649 for 16GB, $749 for 32GB or $849 for 64GB (with contract: 16GB for $199, 32GB for $299 or 64GB for $399). The iPhone 5C is slightly more affordable at $549 out-of-contract for the 16GB version or $649 for 32GB.

When the iPhone 5 was released last year, Apple was the leader in smartphone photography, but with all of the technological advancements in mobile digital imaging this year, the field has changed dramatically. We look forward to getting the newest flagship device from Apple into our studio to see how it stacks up to today's serious smartphone competition.

Comments

Total comments: 518
123
rhlpetrus
By rhlpetrus (11 months ago)

my exp: no smartphone beats iphones, in terms of finished images, especially of people. why does dpr insist on megapixels? for everything that 99.99% of people will ever use a sp for photography, 2mp is enough.

2 upvotes
Artistico
By Artistico (11 months ago)

That's exactly what I keep saying. In fact, if smart phones had stayed at 2 megapixels, the image quality would have been so much better too, with less noise and better dynamic range...

1 upvote
vv50
By vv50 (11 months ago)

...at the cost of resolution. the "image quality" improvement in the iphone 5s is due to the increase of the sensor from 1/3.2" to 1/3.0". if you still want 2mp, nothing's stopping you from getting that from your 8mp image, and unless you are a pixel peeper probably wouldn't be able to tell it apart from a native 2mp image.

1 upvote
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

The sensor specialist has spoken !!!

2 upvotes
KariIceland
By KariIceland (11 months ago)

The nokia 808 laughs at the iphone and will do so for years to come, compare both at an 8 megapixel resolution and watch your false statement be crushed.

0 upvotes
KariIceland
By KariIceland (11 months ago)

is Apple still innovative enough to entice photographers?

Apple has NOT innovated for over a decade.
The camera app is full auto, do tell me WHAT part of tha is INNOVATION?!

4 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

Not only the stock Camera app, but also the API...

0 upvotes
Henry 3 Dogg
By Henry 3 Dogg (11 months ago)

You claim "Apple has NOT innovated for over a decade"

Let's focus on this device and photography.

So how many other camera's have a variable colour temperature flash?

Not just how many other phones have cameras with variable colour temperature flash. Any sort of camera at any price. Or free standing flash units. How of them have variable colour temperature. And an ability to automatically match the temperature of the ambient light.

Stand back and watch the rush to match this feature.

1 upvote
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

How many cameras need this ?

2 upvotes
KariIceland
By KariIceland (11 months ago)

Henry get a bloody Holga then, its plastic crap and offers it

0 upvotes
CyberAngel
By CyberAngel (11 months ago)

IOS=7
OIS=0

1 upvote
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

So that's 7 for Apple :
IOS-OIS: 7-0

2 upvotes
DACOOK
By DACOOK (11 months ago)

Best device ever? The one I have me! Really ... who cares what you have as long as you get 'that' shot!

0 upvotes
Dan Ortego
By Dan Ortego (11 months ago)

I think the 5s is a significant upgrade although not enough to get me on board. Now, the new MacPro is another thing altogether. I'll just stick to my A900, and I'll use my iPhone 4s for those documentary shots in the wild.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 1 minute after posting
0 upvotes
Tyrant70
By Tyrant70 (11 months ago)

So Apple didn't chase the MP rabbit down the hole. Out of all the sites that I thought would understand the Apple strategy of a bigger aperture, better low light performance, and better image quality I thought that DPR would understand.

Is the Iphone gonna perform better than a DSLR? no

Is it gonna be there when you need it and give you good results? Yes.

I prefer Apple to keep the MP at 8 and work on the aperture and low light performance with something that will work when I need it. Do I think they went far enough? no I would have liked for them to have given us more control with iso, shutter, and f stops and possibly a raw output, however, that really isn't Apple is it.

but by all means lets look at specs and fret over it not having higher a MP or it being on the bleeding edge.

Where is the icon with a shaking head.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

Where is the icon for the crApple iFanb0i apologist post alert???

3 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Right next to the insulting/self-righteous/idiotic/judgmental/Android/WP/anything-but-Apple post alert. People can't just let people have a genuine opinion without assuming they are mindless Apple drones without a thought in their head, and yet somehow being an insulting Android/WP/whatever cheerleader who feels the self-righteous, almost holy calling to put anyone who likes Apple products in their place is a noble purpose. I wonder what you say to people in person. Are you this loud, obnoxious, and idiotic to someone's face? If so, how many friends do you have left? Tell you what, go say that same crap to someone's face, preferably someone larger that you, and see how it flies.
Here's what I think, people like you are sniveling cowards in real life and the anonymity of the internet is the only thing that lets you feel superior and brave. Enjoy the feeling.

Comment edited 42 seconds after posting
6 upvotes
CyberAngel
By CyberAngel (11 months ago)

.

Comment edited 7 minutes after posting
1 upvote
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

Howard, your above writing , shows that you are either a nervous-wreck or/and a psychopath (among others, pseudo-intellectual and idiot wannabe ).
You hear that someone is "this Loud" and that he has no friends only by reading his seven word sentence. Dude you need help !!!

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
vv50
By vv50 (11 months ago)

pot calling kettle black

0 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

Well well well !!! we had the snake but just came the crab !!!!!
What mrCrab if the pot is not black ?

Comment edited 8 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

!!

Comment edited 10 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
vv50
By vv50 (11 months ago)

yawn... more argumentum ad hominem. there's a reason why this guy only comments and doesn't participate in forums - the ignore user feature.

0 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

Tu quoque !!! So you mean you are a Feature user ??
:-P

Comment edited 12 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

Don't forget to close your mouth or flies might get in .

0 upvotes
vv50
By vv50 (11 months ago)

this guy always gets the last word in every conversation, and that's because nobody learns anything from him and just move on to other things. this will continue to go on, since he will never even realize it

0 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

~~~~ When someone is kept in a situation of inferiority - the fact is that he'll become inferior ~~~~

Nobody have learned, NOT EVEN YOU ?
Since I never realize it, what's your concern ?
Oh !! I see you feel little again.

0 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

If you'll comment, i promise you, i'll let you have the last word on this thread,

0 upvotes
KariIceland
By KariIceland (11 months ago)

I agree on the megapixels, 8 is enough however i dare you to take any phone to a indoor concerts with poor lighting and photograph it, then let us see how your claim of it delivering good low light "when you need it" stands up to the task

0 upvotes
vFunct
By vFunct (11 months ago)

This is great. Real photographers use iPhones.

If you need a dSLR for photography, that means you have no talent.

All these amateur n00b "photographers" needs to learn to produce a great photo with an iPhone, THEN they can buy a dSLR.

If you do not know how to take a good iPhone photo, then you are not a good photographer.

0 upvotes
KariIceland
By KariIceland (11 months ago)

If you don't know anything about hardware as you clearly do NOT (unless you are using sarcasm which I sincerely hope you are) then that in it self makes you a bad photographer.

REAL photographers use REAL gear that delivers REAL image quality. Cellphones are NOT that.
Sure they are fine and all & are getting closer to compact camera's but again, compact camera's are NOT real gear either.

1 upvote
Henry 3 Dogg
By Henry 3 Dogg (11 months ago)

I mainly use 2 cameras.

A Leica M8 and a iPhone 5.

Neither are the latest model. Both were the best in class when bought. And both do what they do just as well as when I bought them (though Leica could learn from Apple on the software updates for older devices front).

While I agree with your comment, I would say, from the pictures that I see, that I do believe that the availability of decent cameras and and a decent viewing screens on always available phones (and particularly the iPhone), IS improving the photographic skills, particularly of younger people.

By making the whole process more immediate, and shortening the feedback loop, people cannot help but learn.

1 upvote
pixelDoc
By pixelDoc (11 months ago)

"Instead of simply organizing photos by time captured, the new Camera Roll will automatically group photos based on the time and location they were taken. "

I see a huge security flaw with this. For most of my phone pictures, I explicitly DO NOT want GPS data stored into the metadata.

I don't want everyone on my Facebook to know where all my pictures were taken.

0 upvotes
Henry 3 Dogg
By Henry 3 Dogg (11 months ago)

Then on the iPhone, go to Settings>privacy>Location Services and turn of Location Services for Camera.

End of problem. No GPS data stored in the pictures.

Of course you may also want to stick a 100% black filter over the lens in order to avoid the security risks associated with the content of the picture.

0 upvotes
pixelDoc
By pixelDoc (11 months ago)

I will buy the Nokia, Sony or Samsung over the iphone 5s any day. Apple lost its lead when it lost Steve Jobs. This is the best Cook can offer when its competition are offering 41 megapixel cameras with interpolation abilities?

Cook offers a "gold" colored chassis when Sony has a WATERPROOF chassis?

I'm done drinking the koolaid.

BTW, is DPreview ran by a bunch of Apple fanboys like Gizmodo? The article sure sounds that way. It's reading like an ad more than the type of article the title would suggest.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 7 minutes after posting
6 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

While I agree with the rest of your post (this is why I've liked it too), with this:

"BTW, is DPreview ran by a bunch of Apple fanboys like Gizmodo? The article sure sounds that way. It's reading like an ad more than the type of article the title would suggest."

I certainly don't. I've found them perfectly impartial in their smartphone reviews / posts. Actually, sometimes they even exhibit pro-Nokia / Microsoft-bias when they don't directly compare the 1020 to the 808, IQ-wise, in their main 1020 review ;)

0 upvotes
Henry 3 Dogg
By Henry 3 Dogg (11 months ago)

FIrstly, nobody is offering a 41 megapixel camera.

A camera with a sensor containing 41 million elements with higher density toward the centre, so as to allow digital zooming isn't a 41 megapixel camera, it's a camera with digital zoom.

Furthermore, if you want to take good photographs on a smartphone camera with a sensor a few mm across, and limited to that by physics and the thickness of the device, then you are far more likely to get a decent picture on a camera with 8 megapixels than one one with 41. 41 would just waste a bigger percentage of the sensor area on inter pixel gap that doesn't capture light.

You've not given up drinking koolaid. You've just switched to a different brand.

Now if you are concerned about photography, perhaps we should be discussing the iPhone 5s' variable colour temperature flash system that matches the infill flash colour temperature to the colour temperature of the ambient light.

That is about photography.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
KariIceland
By KariIceland (11 months ago)

Apple never had much to offer even with steve jobs these last ten years

0 upvotes
Magnus3D
By Magnus3D (11 months ago)

Thanks but no thanks, i'm not buying into the hype. I will rather pickup the Nokia Lumia 1020 as it is simply a better device and camera.

4 upvotes
ChristopherKnapp
By ChristopherKnapp (11 months ago)

Too bad it has such a horrible OS. I have had two of the later Nokia models, 800 and the 925. Excellent hardware, god awfully unsupported OS. You can have the most gorgeous camera and hardware, but without supporting software ... no thanks.

4 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

I smell RDF-flavored BS. What, pray tell, is horrible with the WP8 OS, aside from the built-in M$ hate from people who have never used it. I have used it extensively and it is in many ways streets ahead of that crApple iOS which can't multitask until now.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"crApple iOS which can't multitask until now."

1, you mean the alleged MP capabilities of iOS7? It's more of a gimmick and are in no way comparable to those of Samsung's multi-window multitasking or Android's / Windows Mobile's (NOT Windows Phone's!!) / Symbian's true background multitasking. I've even dedicated a full article to this q at http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1600628

2, unfortunately, WP8's MT capabilities are equally limited and can in no way be compared to the OS'es / platforms I've listed above. (WinRT's dual-pane "snap" mode, which I've praised in my linked article below too, is an entirely different question. I can only hope it'll be ported to WP8 as well.)

0 upvotes
Henry 3 Dogg
By Henry 3 Dogg (11 months ago)

@Prestiditator

Your refer to others displaying M$ hated, yet you constantly refer to Apple as crApple.

And since you clearly hate Apple so much, why do you even bother reading and commenting on articles about it's products, other than to spread that hatred?

Now you ask a perfectly reasonable question, What is wrong with Windows phone 8...

Apart from random reboots, random fluctuations in auto brightness control, random screen freezes, minimal battery life generally due to stuck processes, unreliable syncing, terrible GPS navigation, awful mobile IE, not to mention and almost total lack of decent apps...

Or are they all hardware problems?

0 upvotes
VadymA
By VadymA (11 months ago)

Larger sensor, larger pixels, faster lens, two-tone flash, instant multiple exposures, 10 frames per second burst, panorama with adjustable exposure, slow-mo video, very clever processing - I think it will be a great snap tool.

Comment edited 50 seconds after posting
3 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"panorama with adjustable exposure"

I wonder what they meant by this.. dynamically changing exposure? settable (but, then, constant) exposure prior to shooting? Both would be preferable to the current model (exposure locked to the first frame); however, the former could introduce pretty bad exposure change artifacts when not done properly.

0 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

Perfect snap toy that would be further ruined down the line by Instagram & Hipstamatic "filters".

0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"Perfect snap toy that would be further ruined down the line by Instagram & Hipstamatic "filters"."

You don't actually need to use them, did you know that? ;-)

NOTE: I'm not an Apple fanboy.

0 upvotes
Henry 3 Dogg
By Henry 3 Dogg (11 months ago)

@meneisyys

"...however, the former could introduce pretty bad exposure change artifacts when not done properly."

It doesn't, so I guess it is.

0 upvotes
Sam Carriere
By Sam Carriere (11 months ago)

The simple answer to the question asked in this title is "nothing". Real photographers do not do serious work with phones.

8 upvotes
burnettutah
By burnettutah (11 months ago)

One of the most stupid comments I have ever read. I am a real photographer and I am also an expert at using a camera phone to make an image.

It is a poor workman that blames his tools. I have images that I will guarantee that you would have a hard time duplicating with a medium format reflex camera.

Something that you should learn is that the camera is the least important part of photography.

A pinhole and glass plate or a Hasselblad and anything in between are merely tools and if these tools are in the hands of a master, art is born.

Comment edited 52 seconds after posting
3 upvotes
jcmarfilph
By jcmarfilph (11 months ago)

And there are some stubborn sites (and authors *ahem*) and users who think they can do serious photography with a crippled camera phone like this. They will blast the resized image with non-sense lousy insta-filters to hide the mediocre IQ and made it even worse by using plastic TC with vaseline. They even dared and thought that it will come close to IQ of decent compacts and Nokia PureView cameras.

2 upvotes
Tinley
By Tinley (11 months ago)

Camera snobbery. Due to a disability I am pretty much forced to use my 4s as my camera because of it's small size and ease of use. I use several camera apps depending on the situation and have gotten excellent results. And yes I use ps and other programs to enhance my images and when people ask what camera I use they are amazed at the results I get. So get off your high horse Mr./Ms. 'Real Photographer' and leave us phone photographers to do our thing.

5 upvotes
ChristopherKnapp
By ChristopherKnapp (11 months ago)

Care to share your gallery? I will show you mine if you show me yours and then people can decide for themselves who the "real" photographers are ...

Comment edited 10 seconds after posting
3 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Guys, take it easy. Great pictures do come from all types of cameras. However, to pretend a regular claw hammer can do the same job as a sledgehammer is to not understand tools in the first place.

Comment edited 60 seconds after posting
2 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

a tool has to be operated by human but tool makes difference.

"The Battle of the Shangani River"

0 upvotes
four under
By four under (11 months ago)

@jcmarfilph.....anyone who insists that the Fuji HS series "superzooms" or any other "superzoom" has good image quality, really has very little room to criticize the output of any other device, be it phone or be it dedicated camera. Full disclosure: I do own a "superzoom". It's a fun camera, but at 11x14 print size, it's no better than my 5mp iPod.

Comment edited 5 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
dweberphotography
By dweberphotography (11 months ago)

If only you "real" photographers would understand that IQ doesn't mean anything when it comes to the creation process. I am a professional photojournalist and the camera I use the most is my P&S Sony camera from five years ago.

1 upvote
Henry 3 Dogg
By Henry 3 Dogg (11 months ago)

I think that you mean that pretentious flash camera posers don't do serious work with phones, or indeed at all.

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
speculatrix
By speculatrix (11 months ago)

Tinley,
try one of the Lumix cameras. compact & light with great image quality.

0 upvotes
M Lammerse
By M Lammerse (11 months ago)

**Both new iPhones offer 8MP cameras — is Apple still innovative enough to entice photographers**

Maybe the following title would be better above this infotainment

"Both new iPhones offer 8MP cameras - is Apples marketing still good enough to lure people who take pictures with a phone."

8 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Or "Are people STILL dumb enough to believe there is such a things as a good camera in a smartphone or have they finally realized it's more a matter of being less horrible than the others?"
The truth is at least they are making an effort to put a better camera in their phones. That's great for everyone. If through some Harry Potter-style magic they can one day make a decent camera squeeze into a phone then we're all better off. For the time being, there isn't much of a camera war in the smartphone market despite some companies paying more attention to it. Same goes for battery life -- some have made an effort but since that didn't help them destroy the competition not much attention was paid.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 5 minutes after posting
3 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

A good camera compared to what, another smartphone or the money paid ?

3 upvotes
GaryW
By GaryW (11 months ago)

It's good if it's what I happen to have with me and it takes a photo that I want. Every photo does not need to be fine art, printed at gallery sizes. Even in low-light, I've taken some photos I've enjoyed, using the iPhone. It's not my preference, but in a pinch, it does work pretty well. What do you want?

0 upvotes
Henry 3 Dogg
By Henry 3 Dogg (11 months ago)

The laws of physics dictate that for a lens with a given angle of vision, and a given overall thickness of device, there is a maximum size of sensor that can be used, and a maximum lens area.

...and given that people generally want their phones to be thin, the sensor is too small to be ideal for serious photography.

But the bulky Cannot EOS that you left at home, is also unsuitable for serious photography, or for any.

So, the real question is, how do smartphone manufacturers make the best of the small sensors size that is available.

Given that the fixed size gap between pixels wastes light, the ideal number of pixels on a given size sensor is always a compromise.

A smartphone camera with 8 Megapixels on a roughly 5x6mm sensor already has pixels roughly a factor of x10 denser than a top class DSLR.

By not increasing the sensor size, Apple would appear to be doing what they believe will result in the best photos, rather than simply feeding simplistic spec sheet frenzy.

Comment edited 6 times, last edit 2 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

The only reason someone would buy an iPhone is the bitten Apple, just like Leica's red dot,
~~~~~HUMAN VANITY~~~~~~,
no better IOS, no larger sensor, no Retina display, no idiotic presentations , no NOTHING.
Just pure
s o c i a l r e c o g n i t i o n
nothing else, but unlike other times , this time Apple made a mistake, presented one more iPhone "a cheaper one", the iPhone 5c, the old iPhone 5 with some tiny changes and a new cheaper look, imitating Nokia's 920 color line,

People are not stupid they know when they try to fool them, my estimation, iPhones 5s and 5c they're gonna hit the bottom, if i were an iPhone 5 user i'd wait for 6

Comment edited 54 seconds after posting
8 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Hello, Epitome of Self-Superior Non-iOS Smartphone User. Thank you for being the perfect example of someone who believes their set of reasons for liking or disliking something is the only way to be. Thanks for being the rebel who is just like all the other rebels, each with their own, unique, extremely self-centered and common reasons for choosing whatever they choose.
iOS is a very stable and user friendly platform with a huge base of apps, music, books, etc. iPhones have a huge network of accessory makers because Apple chose a much, much less fragmented strategy. I prefer not having a huge phablet screen (by no means small) so I can fit my phone in my pocket. It has a case and goes in my pocket rather than being worn on my hip like a gun in the old west announcing what a bada$$ I am. The screen is extremely nice on my 4S and Apple started the trend of high-res displays, fyi. You think not choosing Apple makes you smart or cool, and that makes you the biggest fool of all.

10 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

I wouldn't like to get you off your horse , but what apple evangelizes that can deliver is the average, like Nokia like Samsung like the rest of the market, in very high prices
Frankly i don't give a damn, what you like or what you don't or even what you are!!

I think not choosing an iPhone cause i think not choosing an iPhone.

And finally if you are offended by the human vanity comment, talk it over with your shrink, i'm sure he'll have something to advise you .

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
6 upvotes
marike6
By marike6 (11 months ago)

People buy the iPhones because they work great, have a great selection of high quality app, and Apple's presentation and design sense is second to none. If the iPhones don't meat your needs, don't buy them. But maybe take it down a notch with the "human vanity" psychobabble.

The iPhone 5s and 5c are going to sell as well or better than their previews models. Again, if they don't do it for you, buy something else. For the majority of people they will be a highly desirable, extremely competitive offering.

10 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

People buy Samsung, Nokia, HTC, Blackberry for the same reason,cause they work great too, those brands have exactly the same and in some cases more and better apps.

Competitive offer would be 250$, 500$ isn't, in Europe iP5c will be sold for approximately 600€ which is very expensive for last years technology.

iPhone 5c IS a "preview model".

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
6 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

What a rambling and incoherent response. Either you're too angry to put together a cogent paragraph, English isn't your first language, or both....I'm going with both.
You obviously do give a damn otherwise you wouldn't be so offended by the fact that I disagreed with your professional medical opinion of Apple users, which I assume is the case since you speak with such authority on the subject.
Apple iPhones do cost more than some of the Android phones on the market, but certainly not more than the flagship models for each brand. It just so happens that when Apple releases a new phone it is a flagship. The 5C doesn't count because it is mostly just a color version of a 5. They leave the old models on the market as their discount models, keeping fragmentation down and new iOS compatibility way up. Tell that to my friend who just got his HTC One and said (after having an older flagship Android phone) "wow, you can group your apps into folders." My 3GS does that.

Comment edited 4 times, last edit 12 minutes after posting
5 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Petro, did you just make fun of someone else's spelling? The 5C isn't the previous model, but it is only a mild upgrade to the previous. You'll recall the previous model was called "5" and did have some differences in construction and battery.

1 upvote
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

You are nothing to annoy me (one advise don't call someone annoyed when commenting, it shows your psychism).

I'm sorry you find my English "incoherent ", frankly you can go with anything you fell like (opinion, object or person), (i really hope you understand that).

No i'm not offended,by the " by the fact that you disagreed with my professional medical opinion of Apple users", as i'm not a "medic".

Apple iPhones DO cost more than some of the Android and WP8 flagship phones on the market.

I'm also sorry about your friend (but i'm sure you might have some more intelligent ).

I don't know if you read my comment as it was written or as you felt like reading it, if not read it again. (i'm afraid english isn't you first language as well)

Comment edited 40 seconds after posting
3 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

No i do not make fun of anyone i just use the exact same words, -that anyone- uses.
I will disappoint you again, a mild upgrade is what Apple says, previous model is what i say (borrowed the expression from marike6).

3 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Your use of all caps, crazy spacing for emphasis, and stating out loud that you judge those who you believe are judging you indicates some level of emotion whatever level that may be.
I believe I said some iPhones "do" cost more than some other phones, so saying they "DO" isn't going to make me agree with myself any more than I already do.
When I see someone using another type of phone I think "huh, wonder what kind of phone that is" or "nice phone" or in the case of the colorful Nokias "pretty!" in my girliest internal monolgue voice. Apparently when you see somoene using an iPhone you think "What a fool for giving in to social pressure to look cool. That person must be an idiot to care only about what others think of him. He judges me for not buying an iPhone like I can't be cool without one. He's a moron for buying that phone and not agreeing with my own independent thought process about what is good for me." Funny how you judge others because you assume they are judging you.

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 5 minutes after posting
3 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

Howard, it is obvious you don't like my writing (no i use caps for emphasis and spacing for changing subject or respond to a different thesis), can't help you with that.

Emphasizing on "DO" did that to state, iPhone is the top most expensive cell phone and not one of the most expensive ones.

When i see someone who can not afford an iPhone using one, i say yes "What a fool, for giving in to social pressure to look cool", or when someone can not tell the difference, between file and folder but is spending 800€ for an iPhone i say yes that guy or that girl needs the shrink more than the phone.

I judge people like you do, oh sorry you don't
or
do you ?

There are some things that some people need to built their social image, iPhone is one of them, like it or not

3 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

An iPhone is no more a status symbol than buying a high end Android phone. There are free iPhones, cheap iPhones, and expensive ones. No, I'm not the type to look at someone's phone and think I know how smart they are or what they can or can't afford. Apparently you can spot poor idiots from a mile away. So far the only person here claiming to have insight into someone's intelligence or character by what kind of phone they use is you. Enjoy judging others because you think they are judging you....way to be the bigger person and super-smart all at the same time. I'm going to stop trying to have a discussion with a person who believes he is superior to others he believes think are superior to him.
By the way, you have no idea how much someone paid for their phone.

Comment edited 4 times, last edit 6 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

iPhone IS a "status symbol" as you call it(the expression) . There are no free iPhones, most of them come with a contract that the money paid (for the devise )will be even higher compared to the unlocked one.

I'm an observant type, that is in my nature but unfortunately i can neither spot an iPhone nor a poor idiot from miles away (though that would be convenient for your comment) (i'd like that tho).

Judging people is in human nature (accept it) !! Oh sorry you DO NOT judge people, anyhow accepting it or not is once more your problem. I DO NOT judge because i believe somebody else is judging me,(read again) ( are you sure that english is your "first" language ?).

Never said or claimed i'm superior than anyone, i only said that i don't care of what you believe, that was maybe your feeling of inferiority, (you mentioned that -some- times )(the superior part)

When someone told me how much he paid for that thing, it was then when i WANTED not to have an idea .

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 12 minutes after posting
3 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Then I guess it is unwise to make a blanket statement about why someone buys something. I know people who use iPhone and Android phones and they aren't the pretentious superficial types. I was referring to free with a contract, which is the most common way to get a phone here in the states.
Yes we judge and we try to exercise good judgment, but your theory about why anyone would buy an iPhone is incorrect and judgmental...that form of the word has a negative connotation. Being a judgmental person is different than having good judgment. Anyway, saying that iPhone=vanity is showing poor judgment and also being a judgmental prick.

1 upvote
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

Howard, you say you are not the judgmental kind of person but you judge to exercise your ......
GOODj JUDGEMENT ? (only you have the privilege of good judgement, and you're practicing it) ?

Now !!!! let me "caps lock emphasize" , "state with my crazy spacing", generalize "with my blanket statements" what i believe about Apple's iPhone and please go and practice your "good judgment" .

3 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

You know what Howard, i was reading the comment thread and i see that your pseudo-intellectual use of syntax and the careful word picking is surprising apocalyptic for the type of character you seem to be.

Resuming my opinion about iPhone 5s i realize that is made to suit you, a pseudo-intellectual whatever, that's what iPhone represents (my opinion, like it or not) and that is what you are defending those last six comments , you , you were defending, your iPhone ownership.

Keep practicing your "good judgement"

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 59 seconds after posting
3 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

Judgmental prick ? don't "judge" by yourself !!

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

LOL Now the fact that I can write clearly and have an education means I'm a "pseudo-intellectual" according to the person who can't differentiate between "judgement" and "judgemental." The dictionary would eliminate your confusion. Your conclusion about me and the iPhone are both self-reinforcing delusions. I guess I'll go on showing off my iPhone and bragging about it by never bringing it up with anyone and keeping it hidden in my pocket. I'm such a vane person! Enjoy compensating for your lack of education and money by judging the very people you think are judging you. Maybe assuming the best of others and letting them prove you wrong would make you a happier person. I've met plenty of Android users who bragged and used their phones as status symbols and yet for some strange reason I don't assume all people who use Android phones are the same. I also don't assume people who own old flip phones are poor morons. They're phones...quit assuming so much based on nothing.

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting
1 upvote
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Oh, and the word "diction" means word choice...or "word picking" as you put it. I don't know if I could be described as an intellectual, but I am educated and value intellect. And the word used to describe my tone right now is "condescending." If you're going to treat me like a jerk I might as well act like one.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
1 upvote
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

You do act like one Howard , you are to me,

Pseudo-intellectual, according to your own comments, my conclusion about you and your phone are both based on your pathos, focusing the iphone user, you.

Are you a vane person Howard ? or was that your rhetoric logos ?

Lack of money ? Unfortunately yes in Greece we are in dire financial straits. Lack of Education ? No.
I do not believe you can evaluate if someone has an education or not, no i don't think you are educated enough, just pseudo-intellectual.

In one comment you don't judge people, in your next one, you practice your judgment to keep it in a good shape and you keep repeating that i am the one who judge people only because i think they are judging me, well stop "judging" by yourself.

Once again i tell you that i judge people cause it's in my nature, now what you do, suits you

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 5 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

Oh!! Thank you for the word "diction" i'll keep it in mind, I don't know if you could be described as an intellectual either, never say what you are, let the others tell (if you care about their opinion), i.e I am educated and value intellect too (you see).

And the word used to describe my tone right now is "blasé " .

0 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Good luck with all that. I'll just be happy that I don't base my judgment of someone on their phone. That's dumb. How they behave, treat others, or the quality of their character aren't summed up by "he's talking on an iPhone so he's vane and/or dumb." Maybe in your financially ruined country, but we're not quite there yet. If you're the best they got I can see how they got into such a huge mess.

Comment edited 4 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Petrogel
By Petrogel (11 months ago)

Howard it is good to be happy, i'm sure your smile matches your "giggly" rhetoric.

What would you do with your judgment -once again- suits you. I'm sure you'll be practicing good judgement upon others. "judgmental prick".

On the insular part of my "financially Ruined country" there are many of your likeminded fellows (among others) , shouting out loud about their well hidden inside their "deep"pockets", iPhone. (just like yourself )

And finally !!! i don't know if i'm 'the best they got', i believe not, but we got into that financial mess cause of some consultants from Stanley-Morgan, Lehman Sisters and some Greek corrupt politicians. (fyi).
Are you the best they got Howard ? No of-course not

Oh!! And the word used to describe my tone right now is: benevolent

0 upvotes
Paul Guba
By Paul Guba (11 months ago)

I don't buy a phone because its a good camera. I buy it because its a good phone. It won't be a deciding factor for me. Does it sync my calendar and address book correctly. Is the connectivity good. Is there support for it with other desktop functionality. Is it secure.

The big news really was Apple entering the China market and color may be more for them then our 10 year old kids.

0 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

Then you're in the wrong site. DPR is for photography gear. There are plenty of other mobile phone & gadget review sites.

Comment edited 21 seconds after posting
4 upvotes
vetsmelter
By vetsmelter (11 months ago)

"is it secure" --> good criterium.. last time I checked one needed to Jailbreak the device to run a decent firewall (Firewall IP for iOS) I 'd call it an awesome program which I would like to see on other platforms as well. It's somewhat like little Snitch on OSX and notifies about the phoneing home of many naughty apps.
However, I would never call iOS Secure. It is a honeypot by the NSA most likely and the availability of programs like Viber that send your whole address book (possibly including many contact data of people who prefer secure phones) to a misty location in a single slip of the mind does not add to the security)
If you want not to play part in the fingerprint collection operation by the authorities you have to coop with Nokia Lumia style colors. :D

0 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Prest, I don't think Paul is on the wrong site. I think he is mentioning the piece of equipment in the context of something other than its IQ. Is this a stills site or a video site? Is this an IQ site, or a menu site? Is this an OVF site or an LCD site? Cameras are very complex these days and if a camera is going to have a phone attached to it then the phone is fair game for commentary. Connect is a MOBILE site with the only criteria for inclusion the existence of a camera in conjunction with a mobile device. If you don't want to talk about the mobile aspect of a device with a camera attached then DPR proper (not DPR Connect) is where you need to be.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Prixnobeldefoot
By Prixnobeldefoot (11 months ago)

Every chinese with an Iphone has a cover, so I don't think they 'll be particularly more attracted than others by the colours on the Iphone 5C. Besides they'd rather pay a bit more in order not to lose face when sitting next to a guy with the Iphone 5S...

1 upvote
designdef
By designdef (11 months ago)

They could have slipped a dark, concrete, grey colour in there just for the blokes. We're not all 16 year old American girls you know, I gave up Bubble Gum a few years back. Suicidal design decision, fashion overrides practicality, and in the case of Apple... common sense. These are Loss-leader colours.

2 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

With a VERY significant part of Apple's customers being young females (particularly after tech-savvy males having left for other platforms because of the lack of freedom / innovation on Apple's part), one can't really wonder why Apple has gone for such colors.

Nevertheless, hopefully there will be a jailbreak for iOS7 so that we can install a somewhat more conservative color scheme.

Comment edited 49 seconds after posting
1 upvote
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Menne, this is the false premise I was talking about. The arrogance of the computer savvy to believe that all other computer savvy individuals believe as they do and value what they value. There is no lack of freedom or innovation in Apple devices. Apple offers a freedom from one's phone becoming a constant mobile PC battle. I love my PC, but if I had to deal with the same BS on my phone I'd lose my mind. I shouldn't have to jailbreak or root or otherwise crack my phone to get it to do what I want. I shouldn't have to worry about what and when my phone makers will or won't update my OS. I shouldn't have to deal with an annoying, customize, inefficient skin over an already bloated OS. I shouldn't have to deal with a ton of bugs and glitches and fragmentation issues. I know people who have always used Android and are just now getting features I've had for years on iOS. Android is just as guilty of stealing features from Apple, who did release the first successful smartphone.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

" Apple offers a freedom from one's phone becoming a constant mobile PC battle. I love my PC, but if I had to deal with the same BS on my phone I'd lose my mind."

Well, I myself am a Mac user (also) for exactly the same reason: no need to play with firewalls, viruskillers etc. - it just works.

"I shouldn't have to jailbreak or root or otherwise crack my phone to get it to do what I want."

WRT photography only, I tend to disagree. Both the stock Camera and Photos app lack essential functionality - functionality that are only available via third-party apps because there are API calls that can achieve the given functionality. (Or, with the stock Photos app, additional stuff like displaying EXIF / location etc. info.)

While, for some functionalities (e.g., panorama shooting under certain circumstances) are better done in third-party app, I'd need these additional functionalities right in the Camera app because for example the pseudo-HDR mode is only accessible from there, (contd below

0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

(contd from above) as Apple don't allow developers use either the HDR or the pano code of the stock Camera app. That is, if you use third-party apps, you in no way use the built-in HDR mode. Which is a BIG problem as the DR of the iPhone is pretty bad and the built-in HDR mode helps it with about 1-2 EV. Not much but still more than nothing.

This is why I absolutely need jailbreaking and using CameraTweak, which was also recommended here by the DPReview Connect folks. Then, I have almost everything available via standard API calls (separate exposure / focus POI's etc.) at my disposal, usable right in the Camera client, along with the HDR mode. (And, in video mode, I have direct access to resolution settings.)

The same stands for Photos. It severely lacks EXIF display (which also displays the creation date / filesize - you can't even access them on stock iOS). The jailbreak-only Photo Info certainly helps then.

All these are unknown problems on Android or WP.

0 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

You can limit the conversation to photography all you want, but that's not how a decision on a phone is made by me and by most people. Like I said, the iPhone camera is great if you need a meaningless snapshot (which negates the needs for all the controls you keep blathering on about....I have real cameras for that. If I want control I don't want to control a lousy phone camera.)
Most people who use Android, WP, or iOS don't have a clue what controls you're even talking about. People who do know something about photography probably also have actual GOOD cameras with controls. And for those who must have those controls on their phones, they can do whatever they need to do. Doing everything you mention on your phone is great if that's what you need, but I have yet to see a phone on a camera I would bother being so concerned with. If they put an awesome camera on a phone I don't like they still won't get my business.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"You can limit the conversation to photography all you want, but that's not how a decision on a phone is made by me and by most people."

I know. This is, however, a photography site; no wonder people (including me) are more interested in the shooting capabilities of smartphones than the Average Joes.

1 upvote
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

This Average Joe has higher standards for cameras and image quality than about 99.99% of the people on the planet. I accept phone cameras for what they are and use my energy on equipment worthy of more careful consideration. When it comes to a phone I don't want a horrible camera, but there are many other considerations. I bought the G1 X on day one for casual snapshots all the way up to serious photographs...the phone only gets used when I don't happen to have a decent camera with me. I'm cool with crappy snapshots when it's better than nothing.

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Tony Bonanno
By Tony Bonanno (11 months ago)

What the new iPhones mean to this photographer is that I see no reason to replace my iPhone 5. Not sure why Apple even bothered with this release ?

1 upvote
M Lammerse
By M Lammerse (11 months ago)

Often tech product companies are working 2 or 3 product generations ahead. and in a more competiting world, Apple will be more and more bringing out new generations of phones.

I have to use my photography equipment to create income, and for me a phone is still a phone which has the ability to take pictures, not a dedicated camera. Not brand specific in any way.

For the facebook/instagram users it is more enough camera as are those of other brands as well.

0 upvotes
KariIceland
By KariIceland (11 months ago)

Because idiots will buy it no matter what, i saw a tv channel sent a news crew to the apple 5 launch in my country, they talked to a 20 something year old female, they asked her if she was in the store to get the iphone 5.
She said yes and that she had just gotten her iphone 4s 3 months earlier so that it was time to upgrade.
I think this describes the average iphone user very well. "oh new shiny, must have"

And fyi: there are no contract deals in my country, these phones sell for 1000-1200$ yes that is right US Dollars.

0 upvotes
OvinceZ
By OvinceZ (11 months ago)

The discussions here mention the sensor size but what about the tiny lenses? Both contribute to IQ. We will have to wait for a few years before there is true convergence with mobile phones and cameras. We have a long way to go. The Nokia 808 was a giant step in the right direction but they made two steps backwards with the 1020. Smaller lens and sensor.
The iphone is not in the race anymore. The latest iphone and iPad are gradual improvements but nothing compelling to purchase. Not by me, anyway.
The reality is we will have to accept thicker phones if we want the best IQ. Thicker phones = bigger lenses and sensors.

1 upvote
Mel Snyder
By Mel Snyder (11 months ago)

Does it really matter? These aren't intended as serious photographic devices, although serious photographers can shoot brilliantly with them.

I don't know if there's a company that tracks photo uploads to Facebook and Instagram by smartphone brand, but I'd bet that iOS models top Android brands much like they do in web traffic - and by a sizeable amount. And 99.9% of those uploading iPhone users would find it strange that you seem to think a phone camera needed an "Intelligence Quotient."

1 upvote
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

LOL. This is a photo gear site. IQ in this site's context means Image Quality. Welcome to DPR n00b. :P

6 upvotes
marike6
By marike6 (11 months ago)

A little reality check for the "it's hip to hate iDevices" crowd.
Look at how the professional videographers on NoFilmSchool are going nuts for the new iPhone 5s announcement given that it shoots 120 fps @ 720p, just like the GoPro hero action camera.

See the video and the comments at this link:

http://nofilmschool.com/2013/09/apple-gopro-hero3-iphone-5s-120fps-720p/

1 upvote
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

Yeah so, larger sensors still beat that entry-level P&S-sized hypePhone in the only criterion that matters to real photographers: IQ. Isn't that the same reason why FF DSLRs are better than APS-C ones?

1 upvote
marike6
By marike6 (11 months ago)

@Prestidigitator

I must be late to the discussion, but I do agree with you about sensors and IQ being hugely important. But that's not to say small sensor cameras aren't useful.

The NoFilmSchool pros in the link above were talking more about the video capabilities of the iPhone.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"Look at how the professional videographers on NoFilmSchool are going nuts for the new iPhone 5s announcement given that it shoots 120 fps @ 720p, just like the GoPro hero action camera. "

One can only hope it's true 720p and not half-resolution recording. Knowing Apple's previous attempts, I'm really afraid of it being the latter. However, we'll know for sure in a week whether that's the case.

0 upvotes
KariIceland
By KariIceland (11 months ago)

But if that is 120fps Interlaced then it is Worthless. Progressive is true 120fps

0 upvotes
udris
By udris (11 months ago)

The retina in my eye phone is still ok no need to replace .............

the squirrel on the phone image above is apt apple squirreling away all bonanza it accumulates with a bit of clever marketing

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
vFunct
By vFunct (11 months ago)

The only photographers that matter are working professionals.

Amateur dSLR photographers aren't real photographers and their opinions do not matter.

They are amateurs for a reason, which is mostly because they aren't smart enough to understand what editors care about, and you better believe that ALL editors ask their photographers to take cell-phone photos for location shoots for their company's Instagram feeds.

Too many amateur dSLR photographers in this website with no professional intelligence.

0 upvotes
marike6
By marike6 (11 months ago)

> They are amateurs for a reason.

Yes, because they have other jobs not related to photography.

The fact is most stock agencies only accept images from better, non-P&S cameras. And most glossy magazines are using extremely high quality images in their layouts (read: not smartphone images).

> ALL editors ask their photographers to take cell-phone photos for location shoots for their company's Instagram feeds.

Instagram feed? That's like saying "all concert pianists get asked to play "Chopsticks" at a kid's birthday party at least once". Are you suggesting that smartphone images on a corporate Instagram feed is a typical gig for pros or that a pro photographer is even needed for snaps posted to Instagram?

Comment edited 41 seconds after posting
2 upvotes
3DSimmon
By 3DSimmon (11 months ago)

All editors? Does the porn industry have an instagram feed?, they sell more pics than all of us combined most likely.

2 upvotes
vFunct
By vFunct (11 months ago)

dSLR photographers are dorks. REAL photographers know how to use an iPhone to take a professional photo.

Comment edited 2 minutes after posting
1 upvote
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

So what's your point? Even granting that it is true, what has that got to do with this article? Real pros who have to use a camphone would naturally be expected to use one that has the IQ closest to that of DSLRs, and that's not the iFruitcake by a long mile.

4 upvotes
Mel Snyder
By Mel Snyder (11 months ago)

"Real pros who have to use a camphone would naturally be expected to use one that has the IQ closest to that of DSLRs, and that's not the iFruitcake by a long mile."

Source for this drivel, please!

0 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

The source for this "drivel", n00b, is logic, common sense & photographic experience. You don't even know what IQ means, so all these discussions are above your IQ.

4 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"Source for this drivel, please!"

Well, you may obviously not have followed cameraphone / smartphone news. Otherwise, you would have heard of at least the 808, which, IQ (=Image Quality here at DPR, as others have also pointed out)-wise, is MUCH better than any iPhones.

iPhones are only better at shoot-to-shoot speeds than the 808.

1 upvote
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Prest and Menn...a real pro won't have to use a lousy camera in a phone because they would have one of their real cameras with them and not just their lousy phone. If logic and common sense are your methods of proof, then perhaps you should common sense/logic this into your brains: there isn't a phone on the market that can get anywhere near DSLR IQ/ability. I say "IQ/ability" because having great IQ first depends on getting the shot, which the DSLR has a huge advantage in. Then lenses, frame rate, sensor size, AF speed, customizations, controls, accessories....the list of DSLR HUGE advangtages is a long one. So given the choice between a crappy phone camera with crappy controls versus one that is slightly less crappy, I think the pro could do just fine with either in a pinch. If he's a real pro he'll have his real camera on him a real large proportion of the real time....really.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"If logic and common sense are your methods of proof, then perhaps you should common sense/logic this into your brains: there isn't a phone on the market that can get anywhere near DSLR IQ/ability."

That's not what Prestidigitator meant. He meant "among smartphones, the Nokia 808 delivers the best possible IQ - much better than those of any iPhone models". Actually, it was vFunct that stated something absolutely silly, at least when it comes to barebones camera technology ("dSLR photographers are dorks. REAL photographers know how to use an iPhone to take a professional photo.").

0 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Something tells me a real photographer wouldn't buy a phone based strictly on its camera because there are way too many other aspects of a smartphone to consider and he already has serious cameras. A pro is still a human and still needs a phone that doesn't suck no matter how great the camera on it is.

0 upvotes
CyberAngel
By CyberAngel (11 months ago)

.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
KariIceland
By KariIceland (11 months ago)

Real photographers use something that can give them variable depth of field, cellphones cant.

0 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

Notice that in all of the crApple RDF marketing propaganda, they highlight only the 8MP & 1.5 micron pixels, not the actual physical size of the sensor nor any other new architectural improvements. That would be like Canon boasting about the "bigger pixels" on the Digital Rebel 300D (7.4µm) being "better" than that on the top-of-the-line, full-frame 1DX (6.9µm). ROTFLMAO. I pity the target market for these iFruitcakes, their ignorance is being further exploited for monetary gain.

4 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

(continuing...)
External flashguns from Nikon & others have had colored filters built-in for years already; Canon doesn't bother w/ that silliness because they know real pros either shoot RAW and can change their White Balance at will anytime they want, or, they know (and *should know*) that the color temperature for flashes was selected that way to give the most neutral color balance for flash exposures for the greatest number of lighting situations. In any case, color temperature is a bigger concern for ambient (no flash) lighting where you have no control of the location, number, color temperature & intensity of light sources. Jeez, as if the target market for these iFruitcakes even care, much less understand, what white balance & color temperatures are about before they shoot those self-indulgent "photos" they upload to Instagram.

2 upvotes
JDThomas
By JDThomas (11 months ago)

You're way off the mark here. First of all Nikon has never had colored filters "built-in" to any flash ever. More importantly your comment about "real pros" shooting RAW and therefore negating the need for a color filter shows how completely oblivious you are to what REAL photographers know.

The reason for using color filters on flashes is not for photographing a scene that requires a flash as the only light source. Color balancing filters are used to balance flash with available light. Otherwise known as MIXED LIGHTING.

So before you go talking down about "iFruitcakes" not understanding white balance and color temperature maybe YOU should get a grasp on general photographic lighting techniques, like you know, shooting in mixed lighting.

Welcome to lighting 101 n00b.

1 upvote
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

Hey n00b, your iFruitcake's pseudo-flash has a 3-foot working range, so only morons like you think that 2-tone flash would actually "color-balance" anything aside from selfies with NPD like you. Welcome to the real world where the Inverse Square Law rules, fruitcake boy.

3 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

Also, iFruitcake moron n00b, read up about the SJ-900 Color Filter Set that comes with every SB-900, or the optional SJ-3 Color Filter Set, etc. You're the certifiable n00b since you only joined DPR in 2012, so maybe you should stay at the kid's table while the adults are talking.

ATTENTION: JDThomas the iFruitcake n00b just got massively 0wnz0red!!!

1 upvote
JDThomas
By JDThomas (11 months ago)

Listen up dickweed. I wasn't talking about the iPhone flash. I was talking about your general stupidity and lack of working knowledge of the basics of professional lighting.

So let's get to the filter issue. To quote you - "Nikon & others have had colored filters built-in for years already"
Those filters aren't built-in. They are gel filters that are placed over the flash-head NOT BUILT-IN. Do you get it now moron?

And what's with this "iFruitcake" phrase you keep using? Is it supposed to be funny or clever? It's not. It's stupid.

0 upvotes
JDThomas
By JDThomas (11 months ago)

So now let's get down to brass tacks you troll.

So I'm a "n00b" because I only joined DPR in 2012? That's how you gauge someone's photographic knowledge? From their DPR join date? You're a twit.

I've got more than 20 years of experience in photography. I've got a college degree in photography. I've written more than 20 books on photography, most of them Nikon based. I have written hundreds of articles for photography magazines. Go pick up the latest issue of Digital Photo Mag, I've got two feature articles in it. I've shot for Rolling Stone, SPIN, People, NatGeo, and dozens of other publications.

So what's your experience? Put up or SHUT UP.

See, I'm not a troll hiding behind some character name attacking people for their choice of phone. Some life you must lead. Hiding behind a computer screen calling people insipid names like "n00b" and using little baby phrases like "0wnz0red!!!" Face facts. You're a loser. You attack people from the safety of your basement.

1 upvote
CyberAngel
By CyberAngel (11 months ago)

Sad, very sad...from both of you!

0 upvotes
dweberphotography
By dweberphotography (11 months ago)

Nicely done, JD. You just caught the troll in his own trap.

0 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

As for that two-toned LED so-called "flash": another silly non-starter gimmick. Firstly, it suffers from the same limitation as all the other LED so-called "flashes": *a 3-foot effective range!* LOL. So it's only good for color-balanced selfies taken by those suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). As Nokia has shown with the 6-year old N82, N8, 808PV & L1020, *real men use real Xenon flashes*. At least those things can reach across an average room :P. But then again, the target market for these iFruitcakes won't be expected to understand the Inverse Square Law anyway.

(continued...)

3 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

LOL @ these ignorant crApple iFruitcakes mindlessly regurgitating the RDF marketing propaganda that "megapixels don't matter; Nokia's 41MP is too much anyway; look, the sensel size increased to 1.5 microns, yada-yada..."

Kids, it's not the 41MP that makes the 808PV & Lumia1020 awesome, it's the actual *physical sensor size* that ensures that it would kill all these toycamphones. I don't even need to see & compare sample pics from these phones to be sure of that. The sensor size of the 808PV is a huge 1/1.2" & the L1020 is 1/1.5", both are bigger than even the most expensive premium compact P&S digicams like the Panny Lumix LX7, Canon PowerShot G16 & S120 & similar cams from other manufacturers (1/1.7"). The sensor size on these toycamphones from crApple are laughably puny in comparison (1/2.5"), it's equal only to the cheapest, low-end P&S digicams. So all you iFan-gays should just quit repeating the same FUD over & over again.

5 upvotes
supeyugin1
By supeyugin1 (11 months ago)

Not really, 1020 doesn't use the whole sensor size. It's more like halfway between 2/3" and 1/1.6" sensor in 4:3 aspect ratio. But I'd say that my Pentax Q with 1/2.3" sensor takes better pictures than Nokia 1020, for sure.

0 upvotes
David Cheok Photography
By David Cheok Photography (11 months ago)

Actually, its the photo receptor size and efficiency. Sensor size mostly affects DOF.

0 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

LOL. By your logic the 300D makes better images than the 1DX because the former has a bigger sensel area.

4 upvotes
Prestidigitator
By Prestidigitator (11 months ago)

And in any case, PureView tech default output size is 8MP or 5MP, and at those resolutions the effective sensel size is 4.01um (5MP) or 3.17um (8MP). Both are massively bigger than this iFruitcake's sensel size. I really don't need to see comparison photos to know that both Nokia PureViews would massively own this warmed-over hypePhone.

Heck, even the 3+ year old Nokia N8 with its 1.75um sensel size & 12MP output would doubtless kick this hypePhone's a$$ IQ-wise.

Comment edited 5 minutes after posting
4 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"Not really, 1020 doesn't use the whole sensor size. It's more like halfway between 2/3" and 1/1.6" sensor in 4:3 aspect ratio. "

It does in the respective aspect ratio - just like any camera with a truly multi-aspect sensor, like that of the Pana GH1/GH2 or the Pana ZS3.

The 808, which has a similar truly multi-aspect sensor, can even be "hacked" (via Camera Pro) to export full 41 Mpixel images, that is, one making use of all pixels - without the corners, obviously.

See http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?293830-GH3-GH2-multi-aspect-ratio-sensor-explanation for more info.

2 upvotes
jquagga
By jquagga (11 months ago)

*shrug*. I might get a 5C eventually for the LTE. Neither phone offers me anything else I'm interested in.

However if the 5S anti-blur / theoretically better white balance means I have to endure fewer yellow, jaundiced, blurry selfies on the internet I'm pro everyone else getting one.

0 upvotes
Digitall
By Digitall (11 months ago)

The price of 5C unlocked without communication plan it is good to bring me some cold beers from the refrigerator and bring me hot coffee too. Low Cost!? On Mars.

1 upvote
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

it might be possible to hack into hack into 5C and make it 5S.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

And how do you add the missing hardware?

4 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

I assume you had the answer before you asked.

0 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Was that a serious question? Wow. Um, hate to tell you this but phones aren't designed to have interchangable parts. This isn't a huge PC with extra slots for your accessory cards. The only way to hack a 5C into being a 5S is to go buy yourself a 5S.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

whatever we can hack let's just hack. no problem three people here have no idea how. but someone else may figure it out then I would like to learn.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"whatever we can hack let's just hack. no problem three people here have no idea how. but someone else may figure it out then I would like to learn."

Oh please, stop this nonsense... you in no way can make an 5c into an 5s.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

> you in no way can make an 5c into an 5s.

whatever we can hack let's just hack.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

> you in no way can make an 5c into an 5s.

whatever we can hack let's just hack.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

> you in no way can make an 5c into an 5s.

whatever we can hack let's just hack.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

> you in no way can make an 5c into an 5s.

okay, you know there are some physical differences which is good for you. then what's your point?

0 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

It would cost you more to hack a 5C into a 5S than it would cost to go buy a 5S....I think is his point. "Hack" implies a cheap way to do something meaningful, right? So, to go with the opposite definition that you seem to be using, technically if you had an oven and a kiln you could "hack" a hammer into nails if we were using your definition of the word. That would only cost about a billion times the cost of buying nails directly.

0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

> It would cost you more

probably true, and still not as good. but being able to hack may worth more than 800 dollars plus effort (what are the prices? and how much did Curiosity cost NASA?)

Comment edited 6 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Oops409
By Oops409 (11 months ago)

Your best camera is the one you have with you.
My A55 rarely leaves the house - 5% usage
My Nex-6 I take on trips - 70% usage
My RX100 when I think I might come across something interesting - 23% usage.
My iPhone 4s is always with me - 2% usage
I will order the 5s... Perhaps it will make 5% usage?

0 upvotes
brdeveloper
By brdeveloper (11 months ago)

I used my N8 on nearly 90% cases. Now with a Galaxy Note I practically stopped taking pictures. However, it keeps making around 80% of my pictures.

The 20% remainder pictures I take with a Pana LX3 (18%) and a Canon F1 (analog, 1%). I have a DSLR (Pentax K100D) and other film gear which I only click the shutter button to assure they're still alive.

In short, a decent phone camera made me more productive and now I almost click nothing. A physical shutter button can be a good explanation to my current behaviour, but not only.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
0 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

would want a dumb phone with no camera, no screen, and only works as a modem which can talk with every gadget around me.

0 upvotes
fastglass
By fastglass (11 months ago)

zzzzzzzzz ....

Apple is getting predictably BORING.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Steve-Wozniak-Jobs-Apple-Creativity,19144.html

Right on Woz.

Cheers.

imo

2 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

many say iPhones are too small screen then the 5Cs may well repeat the success of iPad mini.

0 upvotes
siberstorm27
By siberstorm27 (11 months ago)

That headline is a contradiction. iPhone AND photographers? Photographers have DSLRs, and turn their noses at the thought of using an iPhone. I don't know why you are comparing the iPhone to the 41MP of the Lumia 1020 or the 20MP of the Xperia Z1, when it is basic knowledge especially for a photography site that MP doesn't mean jack. Everybody here wants bigger pixels and bigger sensors. You know you are not writing for the dumb naive consumers who look at only MP count. That is not your audience. The iPhone 5S camera isn't any worse than anything else out there. Probably much better than those 1.1 micron 13MP shooters. The Lumia 1020 is a niche product and the Z1's 20MP photos don't look much better than lesser 13MP ones. Neither iPhone 5S or Z1 have OIS. It is still very competitive. Apple hasn't been known to be extraordinary innovative in cameras. I don't see them bucking the trend and pulling out some Lumia 1020 rival.

0 upvotes
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (11 months ago)

I don't want bigger pixels, only larger sensors. HTC already tried larger pixels. Similar results to an S4 in low light, much worse in medium to good light.

1 upvote
brdeveloper
By brdeveloper (11 months ago)

Bigger pixels usually mean better dynamic range and also better SNR at the expense of lower resolution in comparison with a denser sensor. I don't mind being stuck with lower resolutions in a phone, but I think it's important having a good dynamic range and low light performance.

This said, a mobile camera with 3MP in a 1/2.3" sensor, 40mm equiv. fov, f/2.4 lens sounds good to me. Pictures would fit perfectly in a retina display and would be on pair with premium compact cameras IQ.

1 upvote
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (11 months ago)

In practise, this isn't really true. I can't think of one example (from the same manufacturer for example, using tech from a similar era) to support the notion in practise that smaller pixels means worse SNR and less DR. Sony Semiconductors who are famous for their sensor designs, claim it's a common myth too.

The fact that sensors with pixels around 1 micron are able to reach similar quantum efficiency levels as sensors with 2.4 micron pixels or even high end DSLR sensors with 7.2 micron pixels, supports the notion that there is little to no correlation in practise for the size differences discussed here. Sensor size (coupled to a given F stop, thus really size of the entrance pupil), sensor type, sensor maker etc., that's where the SNR and DR differences can usually be explained.

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
brdeveloper
By brdeveloper (11 months ago)

@TrojMacReady - Yes, I partially agree with you. I agree in the sense that HTC One's 4MP "ultrapixels" perform worse than most current high-end smartphones in all aspects (DR, noise, color accuracy and resolution).

On the other hand, Nokia N8 reportedly had better or - at least on par - DR and low-light performance than Nokia 808 and Lumia 1020, despite it had a smaller - but less dense - sensor than its newer brothers (although N8's sensor was pretty big even in the state of the art of mobile phones).

I don't like Lumia 1020 approach. Nokia 808 pixel density was already concerning having a big 1/1.2" sensor. There wasn't any room for increasing sensor density. But Nokia decreased pixel size in L1020 arguing that BSI sensor would compensate losses in pixel size. However, this approach visibly didn't work: L1020 performs virtually the same as a "modest" 13MP Galaxy SIV. In Nokia 808 I can see better picture quality comparing to Samsung's flagship phone though.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
1 upvote
TrojMacReady
By TrojMacReady (11 months ago)

When it comes to output of phones, I probably forgot the most important differentiator: jpeg engines.
The 808 tends to meter incredibly high relative to the saturation point of the sensor, which causes a lot of clipping. I would have loved to see that being adjusted.
But in low light, the 808 is still the clear winner for a given physical exposure and output size, compared to the N8. By quite a margin too.:
http://www.filedropper.com/3808
http://www.filedropper.com/4n8

Comment edited 7 minutes after posting
1 upvote
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"The 808 tends to meter incredibly high relative to the saturation point of the sensor, which causes a lot of clipping. I would have loved to see that being adjusted."

I don't think it'll be, the 808 / Symbian being pretty much dead.

However, unlike on iOS where it's still and, at least for a year, won't not possible (pretty ridiculously...), on Symbian (and all other mobile major OS'es: WP and Android) you can dial in exposure compensation. I recommend shooting with -0.6 EV outdoores always to avoid clipping.

1 upvote
Charlie Jin
By Charlie Jin (11 months ago)

I think that the most innovative feature is the 8M resolution with bigger pixel size. Virtually no one has done it. If they could add more pixels, they always did. If they are idiots, they make it 41M as if we actually need it. It (41M resolution) may make sense, if the phone comes with 256G internal memory with the same price and the 8GHz CPU that can process the 41M image in same speed, and the extra strength battery, and the super speed 6th-generation LTE, and next next generation WiFi.

Apple, well done. It is the best camera phone ever. Congratulations.

I wish Samsung would do that too, since I am using Galaxy Note 2 and I don't have plan to come back to Apple (I am getting old and my eyes can't read things on small iphone screen any more unfortunately). But I know, Samsung will do the same idiotic behavior as Nokia does, since the only thing they can do against Apple would be pixel numbers, which is the easiest thing that manufacturers can do.

Comment edited 4 minutes after posting
3 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"If they could add more pixels, they always did. If they are idiots, they make it 41M as if we actually need it. It (41M resolution) may make sense, if the phone comes with 256G internal memory with the same price and the 8GHz CPU that can process the 41M image in same speed, and the extra strength battery, and the super speed 6th-generation LTE, and next next generation WiFi."

1, when it comes to burst shooting, you are, at least in some respects, right. The two 41 Mpixel phones (808, 1020) can't shoot burst with more than 1...3 seconds (with the 1020, more when saving downsampled, with the 808, when original-sized images).

However, the 1020 has 2GB of RAM, in which it is able to store 10 full-res burst images with 10 fps. That IS something. That is, if you can live with restricted-time bursts, you may find it useful.

2, regarding upload file sizes: one of the aim of in-camera downsampling to, generally, around 1 Mbyte files is making them quick to send / upload.

Comment edited 19 seconds after posting
2 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

make a 160MPix sensor and always down sample to 8MPix may make clueless pixel peepers happy.

2 upvotes
brdeveloper
By brdeveloper (11 months ago)

Agreed when you say that bigger pixels are a great improvement. But I wouldn't like if they said that the 5S lens now has a wider field of view. Bigger sensor at the expense of wider, very distorted pictures don't seem to be a good choice.

If they could keep the same FOV but added a brighter lens and a bigger sensor, that would be really nice.

2 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"Bigger sensor at the expense of wider, very distorted pictures don't seem to be a good choice."

It sure is, but

1, you can always shoot portraits from more afar and crop

2, the not very wide lens is particularly problematic in video mode, where the effective FoV becomes 40mm on the iPhone 5 and 43mm on the iPhone 4S/4. It is just too narrow. (Incidentally, this is why my full-sensor downsampler JB tweaks are so popular.)

0 upvotes
bigley Ling
By bigley Ling (11 months ago)

The innovation of having a larger pixel size was first achieved by Nokia in year 2010 with the release of the Nokia n8. It is amazing how long it took for Apple to adopt this. The Nokia N8 had 1.75 micron pixels with a total of 12MP. Now that was a very large sensor for its time! The 41MP in both the Nokia 808 and the 1020 can be mistaken as a marketing sales pitch, and you are right, we not need it all the time, but the 808 captures surprisingly good detail at full resolution 38MP. Other times the 41MP is purely used to over sampling to simulate a larger pure pixel, and used for a lossless zoom, which works extremely well for video recording!

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
Mikael Risedal
By Mikael Risedal (11 months ago)

The ccd is from Sony, more pixels are always better, do not confuse sensor size and pixel pitch.
= in plain english, the sensor size always matter and more pixels are a benefit

1 upvote
M Lammerse
By M Lammerse (11 months ago)

It doesn't matter for the majority of users for sure.

It will be mostly resized till stamp sized images for on facebook, and if not it will be thrown into instagram for some added...ehh creativeness, and after that pixels, sensor size, lens quality and the used image engine don't matter anymore at all, because all what was originally created is in a creative way destroyed by instagram or other hipster apps

2 upvotes
yabokkie
By yabokkie (11 months ago)

actually it's not sensor size but aperture size.
lens is the one who gathers light, and
a sensor should work hard to waste less.

0 upvotes
brdeveloper
By brdeveloper (11 months ago)

Suppose a sensor technology called X.
If you have two sensors, one with 8MP and the other with 3MP, both with the same size and using the X technology, I would prefer the 3MP one because:

- 4K monitors are not so popular yet.
- I prefer bigger dynamic range than highlight-clipped, sharper images;
- Lower resolution in this context means better low-light performance;
- I never print pictures taken from a mobile phone;
- 3MP fits perfectly in a retina iPad.

1 upvote
miketala
By miketala (11 months ago)

Was thinking yesterday that Apple is perhaps the most innovate camera maker in the world. For example, the 5s is the only camera in the world to have:
1. dual flashes to help get proper white balance regardless of ambient light (1000+ variations of how the flashes fire).
2. ability to take 10 pics/second, camera then chooses the best and potentially eliminates remaining motion blur using the remaining pics.
3. ability to take slow-motion video (120fps at 720p) and, at any point in the video, speed that part of the vid to real time on the fly.

Not only are these new, but they're totally accessible and useful, even to the lay person.

Thom Hogan speaks directly on all of this at bythom.com.

1 upvote
M Lammerse
By M Lammerse (11 months ago)

You forgot a few:

The ability to physically/mechanically zoom between 24 and 120mm
The ability to manual focus
The ability to use filters on it (I don't mean those of instagram)

It's a phone with a camera, it's not a camera with a phone. There is still difference between.

I don't want to spoil the party, it will be a nice product for sure, and it will offer more than enough functionality for facebook, instagram and twitter.

just don't call it a (video)camera or describe it as one..

2 upvotes
miketala
By miketala (11 months ago)

You're being silly, an iPhone is no more a phone than it is a camera or videocamera. It's also a calculator. A gaming device. A GPS. A computer. etc.

And you've utterly missed the point of my comments: Apple, a company that really isn't known as a camera company, is doing more real and useful innovation on the photography front than the major camera makers. Apple's innovations can easily be applied to P&S cameras, mirrorless, and DSLRs. Nikon, Canon, Sony, Olympus, etc, are probably kicking themselves today for not implementing these ideas first.

0 upvotes
brdeveloper
By brdeveloper (11 months ago)

If it only chooses the best-of-ten pictures as a software IS this would be the most dumb approach I would expect.

I presume that with a 64bit processor, Apple will use advanced algorithms for guessing how the picture will look with no motion blur, merging the ten pictures in only one, pairing or almost pairing with OIS performance.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"I presume that with a 64bit processor, Apple will use advanced algorithms for guessing how the picture will look with no motion blur, merging the ten pictures in only one, pairing or almost pairing with OIS performance."

We'll see as soon as decent tests are published but, again, I'm pretty sure it just can't deliver the same quality as a decent OIS.

1 upvote
M Lammerse
By M Lammerse (11 months ago)

That is EXACTLY my point, the Iphone 5S is as MUCH a camera as it is a calculator and gaming machine...besides a telephone, a facebook messenger and a instagram tool.

And it's nothing more, don't make something more than it actually is, it's not a camera, it has a camera functionality, just that it is not a dedicated gaming machine or a dedicated calculator.

The most innovative of Apple is that it will make you think the 5S is a great camera.

0 upvotes
Wye Photography
By Wye Photography (11 months ago)

This article has bought out a lot of Anti-Apple Trolls and mal-contents. If you don't like the products no one is forcing you. If the iPhone doesn't suit your needs or you just plain don't like it - don't buy. Wow! You guys get a life! I have more important things to do with my life than slag a device I am not even going to touch, you obviously haven't. In that case get a job because you obviously have too much time on your hands.

I think android and windows are hamfisted incompetent ugly bug fests that are a hackers paradise, but I don't waste my time (apart from writing this while drinking a nice cup of rosy) venting about it. I suggest you do the same and get on with your life (because you'll be dead soon enough) and rejoice in whatever you choose to use.

Comment edited 57 seconds after posting
5 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

The irony of all the free thinkers who push Android like lunatics and look down upon iOS is that they are guilty of the exact same mindset they accuse others of. "If you like Apple you're dumb because it doesn't allow you to be free, so do exactly what I do because my way is the only way to be free." So if I make a decision based on my wants and desires I'm a mindless Apple drone, but if I buy an Android phone I'm fighting for freedom and openness? And they never seem to notice what hypocrites they are.
Nevermind most Android users are simply Android drone cheapskates rather than the hackers that root their phones and live the free life. The fact that the one OS with the most comprehensive support for older devices is iOS completely escapes their notice.

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 5 minutes after posting
5 upvotes
groucher
By groucher (11 months ago)

Calm down dear. You're getting far too excited. We're just having a laugh at the latest 'innovations' that Apple is attempting to sell.

6 upvotes
tkbslc
By tkbslc (11 months ago)

"I have more important things to do with my life than slag a device I am not even going to touch, you obviously haven't. In that case get a job because you obviously have too much time on your hands."

Irony, right there. You have time to call out "anti-apple trolls" which takes no less time that me posting that Apple products stink.

3 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Android "innovations" aren't any more interesting. It's hip now to attempt to appear unhip by disliking things that are popular. Phone hipsters are no better than the hipsters who try really, really hard to look like they're not trying. They stop liking things that others like because if they like anything popular then they appear to be drones, so instead they can't have a free thought about what they actually like as they attempt to be totally different. Oh well.
A friend of mine once said that about Apple. "Too many brainless fools who are only trying to look hip like Apple so I hate Apple" to paraphrase. He did not understand how incredibly stupid he sounded. So let me get this straight, you don't give a thought to the quality of the product, judge it based on how popular you believe it is with a group you dislike, and you still think you're smart and open minded?

Comment edited 3 times, last edit 4 minutes after posting
2 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"Android "innovations" aren't any more interesting. It's hip now to attempt to appear unhip by disliking things that are popular."

Android may not be "innovating" in the sense of coming up with something radically new WRT shooting & camera. But, at least, both the stock Android OS and device manufacturers give their users what they expect and want:

stock OS shooting features NOT present in iOS (not even via third-party apps!):

- direct, arbitrary WB setting
- -2...+2 EV exposure compensation
- direct ISO setting

Manufacturers provide us with the following (also NOT provided by Apple):

- OIS - this is essential and I really don't think the 5s' burst mode can produce as good results as a decent OIS module
- stereo audio (all current Android flagships)
- dual recording with both cameras
- 1080p60 or even 4K

etc.

All in all, your points are essentially flawed. You consider Android as a "gimmick" offering nothing over iOS. You obviously don't know the two systems well enough.

Comment edited 1 minute after posting
3 upvotes
0lf
By 0lf (11 months ago)

@Menneisyys :
-OIS
-stereo audio
-1080p 60fps
...
How many times did you write this here ?

0 upvotes
Ashley Groome
By Ashley Groome (11 months ago)

What does an iPhone mean to me as a photographer - absolutely bloody nothing - thats what ! I really wish the media would stop giving so much bandwidth to these annoying (and expensive) pieces of gimmiky junk. I use a phone to make calls (I do very, very occasionaly take happy-snap with it) but use a DSLR to take pictures. I can just imagine Nikon offering a D1000 with a built in phone - gimme a break.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"@Menneisyys :
-OIS
-stereo audio
-1080p 60fps
...
How many times did you write this here ?"

Many times, as they're the features I miss the most. Nevertheless, if you don't consider OIS important, just disable it on all your cameras and try shooting handheld without it, will you?

2 upvotes
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

My points are flawed? Based on your summary of my points you didn't read my points. I never said Android didn't offer anything over iOS. I also never said I was talking about the camera itself. I was talking about attitudes towards products based on personal bias. In terms of the camera....well, if you buy a phone for its camera then you have your own problems to deal with that I can't help with. Put earrings on a pig all you want, it's still a pig. There's not a camera on any phone that is good enough or bad enough to motivate me to care one way or the other. A decent camera is nice, but it's a phone. There are way too many things to consider when buying a phone to boil it down to "hey, the video is in stereo! Sold American!" Sorry man, but I have real cameras for real pictures and I use my phone to take pictures out of pure desperation. Any other camera on me and the phone doesn't get used for photographic purposes.

Comment edited 55 seconds after posting
0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

" I was talking about attitudes towards products based on personal bias."

You acted as if everyone here criticizing Apple's reluctance to add essential features already present in other flagships by stating "Phone hipsters are no better than the hipsters who try really, really hard to look like they're not trying. " and the like. You in no way took into account that computing platforms do have a lot more essential features making shooting much more controllable and/or the results much better (60 fps vs. 30, stereo audio vs. mono, OIS vs. no stabilization, (also) full manual control vs. full automatic only etc.)

" In terms of the camera....well, if you buy a phone for its camera then you have your own problems to deal with that I can't help with."

Again, while I agree dedicated cameras deliver much better results, the best camera is always the one you actually have with you. This is why we strive for having as good a camera in our phones as possible.

Comment edited 36 seconds after posting
1 upvote
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"computing platforms " should have been "compEting platforms" in my prev. message. Sorry for the typo.

1 upvote
unknown member
By (unknown member) (11 months ago)

Please read the original post that I was responding to. You are arguing with points I made completely outside the context of the post I was responding to. You are arguing to argue. You are arguing points that I never even addressed. You are basically arguing with yourself at this point. I was speaking of the culture of mobile devices and the artificial and baseless arguments against iOS used by Android users. No camera discussion here. I was discussing mobile devices as being more nuanced than simply an operating system or a camera. There are too many variables to minimize the subject down to whatever you personally believe is someone else's motivation for buying a phone.
Having a good camera in the phone you own is good. Like I said, the point of the phone is to be a phone and if your primary criteria for a phone is the camera then I'm afraid we have nothing left to discuss.

Comment edited 4 times, last edit 7 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
Stollen1234
By Stollen1234 (11 months ago)

so you think we might see weddig photographer using the new iphone as their backup or even as their main camera because of the brilliant apple invention?

i am not..but sure there are many might really do it

Comment edited 41 seconds after posting
1 upvote
Ferling
By Ferling (11 months ago)

When shooting weddings, I always muse at the sea of iPhones and iPads used by those in attendance, while I'm corralled to a balcony, shooting at 300mm, f2.8 and iso1600 on a tripod with a no-flash policy. You would think that those folks below have all the advantage, until posting to FB reveals an ugly truth.

The point is, even if I could use an iPhone professionally, it would'nt work well in 50% of what I do, and for the other 50%, I'd still need about $5000 in lighting and gear to support the final image, anyway. Nuts.

Comment edited 3 minutes after posting
0 upvotes
harrygilbert
By harrygilbert (11 months ago)

Ho hum... these are minor improvements. I suspect that most "device zombies" will be seduced by the greater megapixel claims of other brands, while "Apple Zealots" will mostly stick by that brand. While the iPhone is OK to take quick snaps that are fine in bright light and for small prints, I use a DSLR when better image quality is required.

Kudos to Apple though, for continuing to evolve the iPhone and companion software, while bringing prices down.

1 upvote
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

"while bringing prices down"

Well, I certainly wouldn't call the "affordable" 5c anything to bring the price down - last year's tech in a much uglier outfit than the original iPhone 5.

0 upvotes
brdeveloper
By brdeveloper (11 months ago)

Currently, the most acclaimed camera phones are too wide that usually users must zoom to achieve the field-of-view they want. So, a 33mm FOV in a bigger sensor, greater aperture, looks a good improvement.

Also, I guess blazing fast algorithms can do a good job on image stabilization, mixing high and low iso exposures and long and fast exposures. If you can process something like ten pictures fast enough to not make the photographer bored, you'd probably achieve similar goals of an OIS.

Since the early years, Apple invest more on software than on hardware. This is simple to explain: you are more independent when designing good software than when investing massively in hardware - which you usually need to outsource its manufacturing.

When in Nokia phones there's a lot of room for software improvement, in Apple phones you won't get too much improvement on software updates. You can't say there won't be big improvements in iPhone 5S only reading its hardware specs.

Comment edited 2 times, last edit 2 minutes after posting
1 upvote
skytripper
By skytripper (11 months ago)

This article is evidently using the word "photographers" very loosely. I seriously doubt that most people who would call themselves photographers are going to choose a smartphone based on the camera specs. Camera phones, like any other device capable of capturing photographic images, can be used to good effect by skilled photographers, but they are fundamentally inferior in almost every way to even the cheapest point-and-shoot camera. Let's face it: Although some real photographers use smartphone cameras, these devices are primarily intended to please rank amateurs who may love to snap photos but don't have a photographic bone in their bodies.

3 upvotes
GabrielZ
By GabrielZ (11 months ago)

I have no problem at all with Apple keeping the sensor at 8MP, phone sensors are tiny so adding dozens of pixels to the res is a pointless exercise, a phone's image quality is never going to be great. But for taking photos of family , friends and the occasional candid they're fine. So Apple's improvements to its smartphone are welcome and enough for me. If I want to photograph a masterpiece (lol) I'll use my 'proper' DSLR.

4 upvotes
supeyugin1
By supeyugin1 (11 months ago)

How do you unlock this thing? I'd like to install tethering app on it, I tried once, but I was not able to do it. The OS was too new and it was not possible to downgrade it. I also like to use it with different provider. Was unable to unlock. I can do all of the above with my Android device without any problems.

0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

It's highly improbable there'll ever be an iPhone model that can be unlocked "unofficially". Past-2009 models (starting with the iPhone 4 with newer baseband versions) can not be and I'm pretty sure the 5s / 5c can't be either.

1 upvote
supeyugin1
By supeyugin1 (11 months ago)

This is one of the reasons I will never buy it. Another few reasons - non-removable battery, no SD card slot, there are more reasons I can list.

1 upvote
photogeek
By photogeek (11 months ago)

Judging by the number of posts, disparaging Apple is Menneisyys's day job. :-)

0 upvotes
Menneisyys
By Menneisyys (11 months ago)

Lolz :) I just like chatting in forums while working.

Nevertheless, if you check out my posts below, I also emphasize the new phone's good points; for example, the IQ, which I've stated to be much better than most other smartphones several times below.

My biggest grief with 5S is not the IQ but the lack of features implemented by competitors, sometimes for years (OIS, stereo, proper manual modes, 1080p60 etc.).

2 upvotes
CyberAngel
By CyberAngel (11 months ago)

disparaging Apple?
I though he was an Apple fanboy based on how many articles he has written on those buggers.
I guess not then...

0 upvotes
Lawrencew
By Lawrencew (11 months ago)

"is Apple still innovative enough to entice photographers?"

For me? Nope...

I have an iPhone and about the only time I use its camera is to take an image of a price sticker or something in a store that I want to remember - things like that.

If I want to take a photograph, I use a camera.

If I really wanted to take photographs (and not just 'snaps') when I didn't have a camera with me, then I would be much more likely to buy a smartphone with better imaging capabilities.

But I like my iPhone btw... (just don't see it as a camera)

0 upvotes
Photato
By Photato (11 months ago)

"we knew we could go one of two ways: Simply add more megapixels for the sake of marketing a bigger number. Or keep the megapixel count at 8 but add a larger, state-of-the-art sensor.

A larger sensor allows the individual pixels to get larger. And larger pixels, not more pixels, mean a better picture. So iPhone 5s has an all-new 8MP sensor. One that’s 15 percent larger than before, with pixels measuring 1.5 microns."

"It’s not just a product of what’s technologically possible. But what’s technologically useful. It’s not just what’s next. But what should be next."

"Larger Sensor. Larger Pixels. Larger Aperture."

YES !

5 upvotes
zodiacfml
By zodiacfml (11 months ago)

I have a feeling there's going to be an iPhone 6 soon (with a slightly larger screen), sold along side with these two.

Though I'm not a fan of Apple, 8MP is sensible. A smaller MP count allows for faster processing and other benefits. I wish they keep increasing the sensor size for low light, social picture taking without the flash.

1 upvote
Peter Viccari
By Peter Viccari (11 months ago)

Given the iPhone's primary USP, which I guess is something like "smallest, lightest smart phone, with great performance", improving low light and dynamic range is exactly what I wanted. I certainly don't want a bigger phone, or more pixels. I have those in my GX1 and D800. : -)

3 upvotes
Jack Hogan
By Jack Hogan (11 months ago)

"1/3EV brighter lens"

From better transmission? Not from the wider maximum aperture...

1 upvote
Photog74
By Photog74 (11 months ago)

"both models are touting a fairly underwhelming spec of 8 megapixels of imaging power — will it be enough to lure in mobile shutterbugs"

I don't care about Apple but methinks if Ms. Crabbe measures "imaging power" - whatever that means - in megapixels, then it's questionable whether she should write for DPReview.

20 upvotes
Total comments: 518
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